SSL Matrix and Patchbay setup.. Matrix users please help me!

[AllBread]

I'd keepit simple until the need for a patchbay arises. Depending on how many comps you have you might be able to get away without one. Here's what I would do.

Mic pres into line in 10-16 (eventually 6-16) - I put them at the end as its easy to have faders 1 and 2 monitoring the daw for overdubs

Symphony outs 1-16 to matrix daw inputs

I'd feed the symphony inputs as follows: 1&2 = record bus output, 3&4 = mix bus out puts, 5&6 = follow monitor outputs (or more mc pres when you have them) and 7-16 direct outs of matrix 7-16 where your preamps live

You'll need a patchbay for your fx or you could decide what's redundant and sell off some for more mic pres. If you get it down to 5 your set with the matrix's stereo cue and 4 fx sends

You could patch mic pre outs and additional Daw outs into a patchbay but you only have 8 ( soon to be 16) channels of conversion, right? I'd plug them straight in until there's a reason to add a patch.

Part if the beauty of the matrix s that t allows you to work without a patchbay. I'd take advantage of that until your rig grows but right now it seems that everything is covered.

[Synchronia]

Originally Posted by AllBread

Symphony outs 1-16 to matrix daw inputs

I'd feed the symphony inputs as follows: 1&2 = record bus output, 3&4 = mix bus out puts, 5&6 = follow monitor outputs (or more mc pres when you have them) and 7-16 direct outs of matrix 7-16 where your preamps live

Thanks AllBread! Could you please explain why patching the record, mix and follow monitor bus directly to the Symphony?
My original idea was to use the digital out of the Matrix (which I think is the copy of the Mix bus, right?) directly to the Apogee Digital Input. Record bus could be connected to the patchbay (so I could use a stereo compressor for parallel drum comp for example..).. And I really don't know how I could use the Follow Monitor Outs

I should also connect my Api 3124mb+ i/o to the patch to use its internal mixer as an external bus feed by the matrix direct out.. is it right? Thanks again!

[AllBread]

First off - if you haven't A/B'd the Matrix convertors to the Symphony convertors I'd do that before you commit with your cabling. The Matrix convertors aren't bad at all but I preferred my Avid convertors - nice to have options though.

You're right - the follow monitor outputs seems a bit silly but I found it handy to patch my 1/2" machine into an external input and then I can get it into pro tools without having to patch.

Lots of reasons, though, to have both the record and mix busses normalled to Pro Tools inputs, such as:

Printing a compressed and uncompressed mix - if you use 2-bus compression it's nice (and easy) to back it up with an uncompressed mix but inserting it on the mix or rec bus and leaving the other dry. You can give both to your mastering engineer and discuss which ones the best to use.

Stem mixing - put your drums on the first 8 faders going to one bus and if you have lots of guitars or keys they can take up the rest of the faders going to the other bus so you can print two stereo stems at once.

Mix-minus prints - easy to do a full mix and one w/o vocals at the same time.

Group compression - say your mixing your drums on the first however many faders and you want to compress them as a group. Send them to the mix buss with your compressor on it and then in the master section send the mix to the record buss so that the post compression signal mixes with everything else.

[Synchronia]

Thanks again, for the infos! So for the
moment I think it's better not to buy a patchbay, I first need to understand well the Matrix routing and see how it integrates with my workflow. I really apreciate your posts.

By the way if there is some other Matrix user who would share their experience please come into the discussion, thanks!

[AllBread]

First thing I did was read the manual cover to cover (about 3 times) and found lots of smart routing options inside the console that save on cable. For instance - there are separate cue outs and artist monitor outputs. This means that instead of bringing the cue outs to a patch bay to patch into artist headphones while tracking and a stereo reverb when mixing I can send the cue outs straight to the reverb, send the artist out straight to the headphone and then just select "cue" as the source for monitors headphones. They really thought of everything on this console!

When integrating a new console, I always map everything out on spreadsheet and then when it all seems to make sense I actually label my patchbays before doing any connecting or soldering. Then I just sit there and stare and imagine every possible scenario and how I would get audio to the right places. I'll leave it like that for a few days before I start buying and soldering cable. Kind of a measure 5 times cut once of philosophy. Nothing worse than spending the better part of a week soldering patchbays only to change it all 3 months later when you realize what you should of done.

[C.Judd Karn]

Are there any interesting ways people have been routing with either cues, the record buss to mix or using external summing coming back in .... All for parallel processing that anyone is using on the matrix?

[brew]

Originally Posted by C.Judd Karn

Are there any interesting ways people have been routing with either cues, the record buss to mix or using external summing coming back in .... All for parallel processing that anyone is using on the matrix?

Sure, you can do parallel processing or return external inputs to mix with the REC, CUE, or MIX busses, because they all have inserts, insert summing, and TO MIX features. The stereo returns can also be used this way. Any console with channel sends and multiple busses with inserts can be used to do parallel processing.

[AllBread]

I do wish the inserts for those three busses could be accessed via the insert matrix - I guess I just need to find the perfect 2-buss compressor and leave it "strapped" on. Hmm, wonder which one is best - perhaps I will start a thread asking people!

[Synchronia]

Quote!

I'm going to put the SSL X-Rack Bus Compressor in the Mix Bus and use the Api 2500 straight on the Rec Bus (for drum compression).

However I'm planning how to connect my outboard gear and I would like to receive your opinions.
I put 8 vintage compressors in the first 8 Matrix inserts: urei 1176 (x3), urei La4 (x2), Dbx 165, Dbx 160Vu (x2).
Insert 9: Millennia STT1(comp and eq)

Here I need your advice since I have 3 delays (Sde3000 x2 and Pcm42), one Mxr Flanger Doubler and some guitar pedals.. Should I put them in insert (i.e. using the pcm42 for the vocal only) or in the send?
Please consider that I have also 4 reverbs (pcm70, pcm60, emt 244 and sony dps v77) which I would like to have in the matrix sends.

[Synchronia]

Originally Posted by AllBread

For instance - there are separate cue outs and artist monitor outputs. This means that instead of bringing the cue outs to a patch bay to patch into artist headphones while tracking and a stereo reverb when mixing I can send the cue outs straight to the reverb, send the artist out straight to the headphone and then just select "cue" as the source for monitors headphones.

Just a question Allbread, where did you connect the return from the stereo reverb? Did you use a Matrix stereo return or two channels? Is there a way to save the 4 matrix stereo returns for the outboard connected to the 4 fx sends?
Thanks!

[AllBread]

I don't have as much outboard fx so I was able to bring cue return back to FX return 1 but it is a shame that there are one fewer FX returns than there are sends. Seems to me that you're only options are to bring it back to a couple of faders or bring it back to the Ext 1 or Ext 2 input - in which case you would want to use the "following monitor" sends to capture your mix because you can't buss ext 1 or 2 to the rec or mix busses but you can add them with your monitoring by hitting the sum button before you hit ext 1 or 2 so that it adds it to the monitor chain instead of just switching to it. Or, if a couple of your FX units were mono units you could have them share a stereo return and just put the return in mono but that's still kind of a work around.

Oh, just thought of another possibility that might be just the ticket. What if instead of doing a send and return for the cue send you just used your stereo fx unit as an insert on the cue buss and then bussed the cue mix to your main mix. I'm not in front of the console but I think that that would work great and basically get you the same thing as using the cue send and having separate returns. Would that work?

[Synchronia]

Thanks for your answer!

I was also thinking to bring the stereo return signal back to the Ext 1, summing it in the Monitor and printing the final mix through the Follow Monitor Out, it should works!
My tech was also thinking at the Cue Send/Insert routing, but we couldn't test it (we are still soldering all the xlr / jack connectors to the DB25 cables to fill up all the outboards, we should be ready in a couple of days..).

In my opinion I think it should be better going with the Ext 1/2 sum and patching a compressor in the Stereo Cue insert. That way in mixing we can either use the Cue bus for group or parallel compression, or use it as an extra stereo fx send.

I still don't have a patchbay, but I realized that it could be handy to patch my stereo comps (Api 2500 and SSL bus comp), reverbs and delays to the Stereo Cue and Fx Send/Return for more versatility..

Let me know if you have good news!

[kennydezotttk]

Anyone else that has suggestions?

[Synchronia]

I did some tests these days, patching one reverb to the Stereo Cue insert send/return and it works like a charm!

I also bought a patchbay, my plan is to connect some extra outboard, the bus inserts, channel lines / daw i/o and all the Fx sends/returns to the patch, for more flexibility. My Api 2500 will be normalized to the rec bus, the SSL bus comp to the Mix bus, most used reverbs and delays to the fx sends/returns..

I also tried the "API extra bus trick" and it works
I can either send the Channel Line outs (or the Daw outs) to my two API 3124mb+ mic/hiZ inputs, controlling the level with the CHOP (or DA) volume, summing 4/8 channels (with pan and level) and getting back to the console using two channels or external input.

I'm really happy about the Matrix and its routing, if someone else has further suggestions and want to share his experience please join the discussion!

[Ollie]

1. Read the manual and take note of different wiring schemes they mention.
2. You might want to consider hiring a pro who has lots of experience setting up patchbay hookups for high end studios. Through years of experience they can give you lots of ideas on making your patchbay flexible now and into the future.

[AllBread]

I've finally figured out my routing - its 80% implemented and works like a charm.

First off, I was really stubborn about the patchbay - all though I already had one that I had soldered up for my x-desk I decided that I really wanted to see if I could do without it because I loved the idea of not having to patch (or remember how things were patched for recall), the patchbay was taking up valuable rack space, and I liked the idea of removing the extra cabling and solder joints from the signal flow.

So, I ended up investing in more I/O to achieve my goals and now have two Avid HD I/O units with 24 analog outputs and 32 inputs. I have 8 mic pres in my studio. My cabling is as ollows:

PT outputs 1-16 to Matrix DAW returns 1-16
PT outputs 17-24 to Matrix line inputs 1-8
Mic pre outputs 1-8 to Matrix line inputs 9-16

Matrix channel outputs 1-16 to PT in 1-16
Matrix Rec, Mix, Follow monitor outs, and 1/2" tape return to PT inputs 17-24
Stereo Fx 1-4 to PT inputs 25-32

For the above, I did breakdown and install a trs patchbay that I had in the amp racks that is mainly being used as a splitter - the Matrix Rec, Mix, and follow mon outs show up there half- to PT inputs 17-22 with the tape outs half- normalled to 23/24. This way I can feed the tape machine from any of the bus outs - I'll patch the rec bus to the tape inputs (so that it feeds both PT inputs and tape inputs) and doubt that I'll move it much but can if needed. I also used the patchbay to return my 4 stereo fx half-normalled to the Matrix 4 stereo returns and patched to PT inputs 25-32 so that I can print the fx into pro tools.

I have two FX units that I wanted to be able to feed in stereo but only one stereo buss so I put the first one (Eventide H8000) on the cue insert and the 2nd (Bricasti M7) on the cue output. Since the insert send is always active, this feeds both devices at once and I can print both into pro tools (the bricasti returns to stereo return 1 on the Matrix, as well to get into the mix and hitting the insert button on the cue buss brings the Eventide back into the mix (or allows me to send Eventide delays into the Bricasti Reverb).

My mono FX sends on the Matrix feed the 2nd engine of the Eventide, a TC2290, and a Roland RE-501. Those are all returned in stereo on FX returns 2-4 on the Matrix (as well as going straight into Pro Tools).

I have an API 2500 on the Record buss insert and a Pendulum OCL-2 on the Mix buss insert so I can choose between them as a Master Comp or send whatever I want to the API 2500 and them combine that with the rest of the mix.

I have the 16 inserts filled up with 16 outboard eqs or comps, of course, and still having my patchbay standing by if (when) I buy more outboard and want to insert it between PT outs 17-24 and Matrix Line in 1-8.

This set up allows me a tremendous amount of flexibility and extremely fast recall because (if my hard drives could keep it) I could essentially print my mix (one compressed, one dry, as well as a version printed and captured off of tape) as well as all 16 direct outs (which would include any channel that had outboard processing on it) and all of my FX. At that point, it's all in Pro Tools and any mix revisions can be done totally in the box if I desire (or stem it out with the same I/O to the Matrix without having to worry about resetting the outboard).

This might seem a bit obsessive (probably because I obsessed over it for two weeks while hanging on the couch after back surgery) but 90% of the time I'll probably do the drum mix in the analog domain while getting basic levels and panning on PT using the Matrix as a controller. Once I print the drums (full drums, drums compressed, drums tape as well as all the individual tracks if I want) then I can free up my outboard gear and return drums to two channels leaving me 14 automatable faders and 8 "summing channels" for everything else which should do the trick. I can also obsess as much as I want with printing individual tracks to tape and printing separate FX using the same processors for different instruments which is giving me a ton of bang for my buck with the outboard that I own. Obviously, for clients who can't afford that much time mixing, I can do the mix in the box sending just the key tracks (or groups) that I want outboard on to the Matrix analog section and recall is still easy as pie.

That's the plan, anyway, I'll let you know how it all works out once I finish soldering these TRS ends on!

[alexkemp]

this is how we set up ours-- we brought everything to patchbays to make sure we could modify/alter the set up when we need to....

live room inputs are normalled to 16 preamps (various types)

preamp outs normalled to channel line inputs

device send to patch bay normalled to the ins on various eq's and comps, outs of those eq's and comps back to patchbay and normalled to device returns on the matrix.

(ANYONE hate the matrix insert software yet? I do! To make a signal chain you have to go through all these steps and save it first, then apply it to the channel. Ever heard of drag and drop?)

Then we have the channel outs normalled to the AD16x ins. The DA16x is normalled to the DAW returns.

ANOTHER MASSIVE SHORTCOMING of this console is that there is only one headphone mix that you can route the talkback to. You CAN setup 2 more headphone mixes using the 4 fx sends, as long as you don't need to talk to your musicians...

I use all my verbs and delays ITB, so I have them return on fx return 1 and use fx return 2,3 and 4 for voice over/dialogue, sound effects, and click respectively. If I had more hardware effects I wanted to use, I'd probably get the small x-desk and then run the output of that into a single FX return... just an idea. Still, your limited to 4 sends... Certainly using the channel line input-->cue stereo and assigning that to the mix bus works for an extra 16 ins, just not while tracking (if your using a headphone mix)

Has anyone found a workaround for multiple headphone mixes? I called SSL and they said they'd get back to me- never heard from them again. 20,000 dollar console and crap customer service: I'm not even surprised anymore!

enjoy the board- it sounds great, and ultimately its a well thought out, versatile piece of gear. FWIW, I'd bring everything to the patchbay, all the I/O you can, so that you can reconfigure as each song/session demands. That's the beauty of this and any analogue console- its a blank canvas!

[AllBread]

Originally Posted by alexkemp

(ANYONE hate the matrix insert software yet? I do! To make a signal chain you have to go through all these steps and save it first, then apply it to the channel. Ever heard of drag and drop?)

I just realized this the other day when I got all my hardware patched in. In order to use any two devices you have to create a chain first instead of dropping them in one at a time like inserts in Pro Tools. Hopefully a software update down the line will fix this.

As far as talkback to different headphone mixes - without a talkback out I'm not sure what you would do other than just run a separate talkback mic to a track on the Matrix and buss it from there.

The biggest "oversight" for me is not have the cue, rec, and mix inserts tied into the insert matrix so that you could easily put whatever you want on those busses. Also, sure wish it allowed for 24 (or more) inserts - I looked into expanding this with the Matrix X-patch but that's a really silly box where you have 2 I/O to access the 16 inserts and if you want more I/O at once you have to steal it from the inserts (so you could have 8 ins and outs but then you only have 8 ins and outs for outboard gear).

Also bummed not to see a "expander connector" on the back - how great would it be to be able to add 16 more channels with an insert matrix without the center section in the future? I guess they have to be careful about digging into sales of the AWS line.

All in all, though, I love this console and it works perfectly for my needs and still gives me a little room to grow (a fair amount really - if you wanted to you could get 16 channels of SSL Eq's and compressors and patch them in between your interface and daw returns <heck, you could do 32 channels> and then use the insert Matrix for "specialty" devices. I also like Synchronia's "API extra buss trick" for expanding FX sends.

For me it's not an "A" room console but more of a "B" room console (and I'm sure the marketing folks at SSL made sure that there were enough limitations that you would need to jump to and AWS for the A room) It's great when you're doing mixing and overdubs and maybe drums but not having to make multiple headphone mixes and what not. I built my home studio to be the perfect "B" room and it's going to be a long time before I outgrow the Matrix.

[alexkemp]

yeah I get the feeling the next revision of this board will be great. In the meantime, its still the best thought out piece of gear in its range, and unlike the AWS (which IMHO has a different market) its not forcing you to buy a bunch of preamps and eq's you may not want (or use, anyway, who wouldn't WANT them?)

For me its the closest thing to a tree audio console with DAW control that I could find (with going into the audient zen world, which isn't a sound I was after).

But I think it can be an A room console, it just needs more expandability (an extra 16 fader expander would be great) and run an output to the back for the talk back so you don't have to waste a fader to route your talkback if you're using more than one headphone mix.

If I was recording to tape then I'd probably want more busses, and if I was mixing from tape then I'd definitely want more aux sends. But I'm not! And probably won't be in the near future (famous last words for a gearslut : )

meanwhile I still think having someone from customer service say they'll call you back and then flaking out is pretty bad when you're talking about a 20k plus purchase is kind of bogus.

[Jim@SSL]

Originally Posted by alexkemp

meanwhile I still think having someone from customer service say they'll call you back and then flaking out is pretty bad when you're talking about a 20k plus purchase is kind of bogus.

Please PM me about this.

[Rupert Limehouse]

Originally Posted by alexkemp

this is how we set up ours-- we brought everything to patchbays to make sure we could modify/alter the set up when we need to....

live room inputs are normalled to 16 preamps (various types)

preamp outs normalled to channel line inputs

device send to patch bay normalled to the ins on various eq's and comps, outs of those eq's and comps back to patchbay and normalled to device returns on the matrix.

(ANYONE hate the matrix insert software yet? I do! To make a signal chain you have to go through all these steps and save it first, then apply it to the channel. Ever heard of drag and drop?)

Then we have the channel outs normalled to the AD16x ins. The DA16x is normalled to the DAW returns.

ANOTHER MASSIVE SHORTCOMING of this console is that there is only one headphone mix that you can route the talkback to. You CAN setup 2 more headphone mixes using the 4 fx sends, as long as you don't need to talk to your musicians...

I use all my verbs and delays ITB, so I have them return on fx return 1 and use fx return 2,3 and 4 for voice over/dialogue, sound effects, and click respectively. If I had more hardware effects I wanted to use, I'd probably get the small x-desk and then run the output of that into a single FX return... just an idea. Still, your limited to 4 sends... Certainly using the channel line input-->cue stereo and assigning that to the mix bus works for an extra 16 ins, just not while tracking (if your using a headphone mix)

Has anyone found a workaround for multiple headphone mixes? I called SSL and they said they'd get back to me- never heard from them again. 20,000 dollar console and crap customer service: I'm not even surprised anymore!

enjoy the board- it sounds great, and ultimately its a well thought out, versatile piece of gear. FWIW, I'd bring everything to the patchbay, all the I/O you can, so that you can reconfigure as each song/session demands. That's the beauty of this and any analogue console- its a blank canvas!

You could be describing my studio - just put a Matrix in and very happy with it - exact same patchbay setup and convertors as you (did you use Switchcraft 9625s - also great?). We use a Hear Technologies 8 channel foldback system (saving up for the Manley one!) which is fed direct from Pro Tools via a Rosetta 800 - the talkback out from the Matrix just goes straight into one channel of the Heartech system.

Pic attached of Matrix in new custom made console which houses all gear in the control room - everything at arms reach. Did I say I'm very happy with this new setup? :-)

[AllBread]

Does the Matrix have a talkback out or are you sending it through the artist out to the Hear brain?

[AllBread]

Oh yeah, I also ran a optical cable from my Mac to the Toslink in of the Matrix. Just switch it off the default AES input in the SSL Misc section and it works and sounds great for listening to iTunes and what not (and I don't have to fire up the rest of the rig and can play iTunes and Pro Tools at the same times).

[Rupert Limehouse]

Originally Posted by AllBread

Does the Matrix have a talkback out or are you sending it through the artist out to the Hear brain?

I'm just sending the Artist out to the Heartech brain - no separate TB out afaik.

[Synchronia]

Originally Posted by alexkemp

I use all my verbs and delays ITB, so I have them return on fx return 1 and use fx return 2,3 and 4 for voice over/dialogue, sound effects, and click respectively.

So you are not using Matrix Fx Send 1? I think you probably source all your ITB Fx internally from the Daw (not from the Matrix analog channel, post analog insert) and if so did you noticed a notible difference?

[gillesroger1@mac]

Originally Posted by alexkemp

this is how we set up ours-- we brought everything to patchbays to make sure we could modify/alter the set up when we need to....

live room inputs are normalled to 16 preamps (various types)

preamp outs normalled to channel line inputs

device send to patch bay normalled to the ins on various eq's and comps, outs of those eq's and comps back to patchbay and normalled to device returns on the matrix.

(ANYONE hate the matrix insert software yet? I do! To make a signal chain you have to go through all these steps and save it first, then apply it to the channel. Ever heard of drag and drop?)

Then we have the channel outs normalled to the AD16x ins. The DA16x is normalled to the DAW returns.

ANOTHER MASSIVE SHORTCOMING of this console is that there is only one headphone mix that you can route the talkback to. You CAN setup 2 more headphone mixes using the 4 fx sends, as long as you don't need to talk to your musicians...

I use all my verbs and delays ITB, so I have them return on fx return 1 and use fx return 2,3 and 4 for voice over/dialogue, sound effects, and click respectively. If I had more hardware effects I wanted to use, I'd probably get the small x-desk and then run the output of that into a single FX return... just an idea. Still, your limited to 4 sends... Certainly using the channel line input-->cue stereo and assigning that to the mix bus works for an extra 16 ins, just not while tracking (if your using a headphone mix)

Has anyone found a workaround for multiple headphone mixes? I called SSL and they said they'd get back to me- never heard from them again. 20,000 dollar console and crap customer service: I'm not even surprised anymore!

enjoy the board- it sounds great, and ultimately its a well thought out, versatile piece of gear. FWIW, I'd bring everything to the patchbay, all the I/O you can, so that you can reconfigure as each song/session demands. That's the beauty of this and any analogue console- its a blank canvas!

Hey Alex,
One way to get individual CUE mixes is to send your Matrix Channel Outs 1-16 to a Patchbay half-normalled to the converter Inputs. Then you patch the AUX In of your headphone amp in the patchbay using separate inserts, for example 17-24. Take patch cords and connect your Channel Outs on the front of your patchbay to the appropriate Head Amp Aux channels. Your Matrix CUE L/R will feed your main HeadAmp Input and you will be able to dial in as much of the main mix to individual channel for your artist. Works like a charm. To insert a metronome etc just use an FX channel Rtn. Hope this helps