Tracking Electric Guitars - Options

[kafka]

Well, there are so many ways to do it, and everything you've listed will work. I tend to reach for dynamic mics first on guitar to smooth them out a bit, particularly if the mic is less than 2' from the amp. All of the ones you've listed will work just fine. The SM57 does significantly better with a good preamp that can bring out a little more detail and punch. I've spent a lot of time with SM57's, and they're pretty far from my favorite mic at this point. The M88 is one of my first-reach mics for guitars, although I usually go with an M201 first, and then change it out if I need a bit more jangle or something more aggressive. An API 512 is a very common, easy choice, although there are a ton of others preamps that will work just as well. They're not that expensive, either, especially used. Dakings are great, too.

I spent about 7 years playing nothing but a Fender Twin. I liked it a lot, but it's really a very loud amp, and very clean. For general songwriting, I'd think something you can push a bit without going deaf would be preferable. A Deluxe is an easy choice. I've been playing my Champ a lot lately, although, it's pretty gritty even at low volumes, so to me it's more of a specialty tool.

Matchless makes really beautiful amps. I've had a Dr Z Maz 38 reverb for the past several years, and it's just a great amp. It immediately became one of my favorite amps of all time. It's pretty clean with single coils, and fairly gritty with humbuckers. It's an extremely versatile amp. It's basically the unholy combination of a Fender Blackface and a Vox, although it can hit some JTM45 tones as well. It also isn't that expensive. It doesn't weigh a ton, either, so it's easy to move it around to find the best place in the room. For a while I was playing it through my 2x12 EVM12L cabinet, and it could get way beyond loud. I mostly stick with the Celestion in the cab, though, which is more focused.

Close micing a speaker is pretty common, although to me it's a very specific sound that doesn't really sound like the amp as I hear it in the room. Get the mic out a bit so that the sound the entire speaker cone can come together. There's nothing really magic to it. Just get the mic out there and wave it around until you get a sound you like.

On placement of the amp, get it off the floor and away from the walls. Your bass frequencies will be a lot more controlled. I also often find it's best not to place it parallel to the walls. You'll get a little better diffusion that way, and you can avoid some of those little peaky resonances that make guitars sound nasty and uneven.

Of course, you haven't mentioned guitars. Get something that's simple and enjoyable to play. Telecasters are great, and a lot of the cheaper ones are just fine. I've even played a few Mexican Telecasters that were really nice guitars, and I haven't had the same experience with Mexican Strats. Some Epiphone Les Pauls are also real finds, but you have to play a lot to find a good one. I like the new Gibson Les Paul Jr's with the P90's. Epiphone also made a reissue Les Paul Jr with a set neck a few years ago that was a fantastic value, and was a lot of fun to play. Whatever you get, since you're not a guitar player, have a pro set it up for you. A good setup will do wonders for a guitar.

Oh, and get a tuner, too. A lot of guitar players really aren't that good at tuning by ear. There's kind of a trick to spreading out the 'error' in tuning so that it's not obnoxious, and a lot of people have really quirky methods that tend to sound good in only a few places on the neck. I like the TurboTuner ST-122 strobe tuner. You can just stand it up on top of the amp and just let it run, and the LEDs are bright enough to see across the room.

Anyway, I don't want to bore you with a list of my favorite equipment. I hope I've explained *why* the above gear works, and have given you some idea of the kinds of things that you should look out for.

[Mr. Sister]

i am by no means pro, but a nice di box and an ac15 with the mics youve already got should be more than enough. having multiple amps is nice, but id rather have a couple that i know how to get tones out of, than spend hours trying out different things. you could blend the di track inti the amp signal with whatever amp sim you want, and come up with a world of tones just like that.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Gearslutz App

[Ward Pike]

for your needs, you just need something to generate good guitar tones. Get a Digidesign (Avid) Eleven rack and/or a Marshall JMP1. That's all you'll ever need.

[KRStudio]

M160 near the speaker----done!

[The Famous Yard]

+1 on API Pre and M88 (Sm57 also good). I have a load of guitar stuff but I end up using Vox ac30, 70s vibroChamp, blues junior the most with either m88 and/or ribbons or condenser for cleans sometimes (although watch the high end). A small amp (vox ac4, blues junior, tiny terror) in the corner with a mic on it all the time would be great and easy for writing. If you're getting someone in for tracking they can bring any specific stuff.

Btw every Matchless I've heard has sounded great. Thd univalve is a great all rounder IMO and has built in attenuator for neighbour pleasing levels.

Also as a synth guy, tracking through a Gtr amp can really help your synths breathe.

My 2 pence

[CJ1973]

Hey folks

Thanks so much for the great thoughts. I will look into some of the options mentioned.

I am curious to know, with regards to having hardware amps vs simulations (aka Amp Farm, GTR3 etc), is it recommended to have a combination of both and perhaps a combo mix as well for modern pop? (especially from a studio perspective).

With using the M160, is there a recommended distance/angle?

Is anyone using 8 to 10W type amps to get that 'big' sound or are using mostly 15+W amps to get the big sound? (not necessarily dirty, but bigger/fuller)

Finally, any further preamp choices would be appreciated, that works as an all-rounder for these.

Thanks again folks!

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by kafka

Anyway, I don't want to bore you with a list of my favorite equipment. I hope I've explained *why* the above gear works, and have given you some idea of the kinds of things that you should look out for.

Thank you by the way for the amazing answers and thoughts in terms of the bigger picture. The bottom line for me, playing producer, is being able to get the best sound with what I have, the budget and what the artist brings. In this instance, a lot of your process and thoughts appeal to me in terms of getting to the bottom of each aspect of the recording. It all completely makes sense, and any good recommendations, is what I am all about, especially from experienced folks like yourself. Thanks!

[Schattenmann]

Don't forget that you can also use a load-box and/or a cabinet simulator.
It's not a universal Swiss-knife solution but works well in certain situations.
The Palmer gear usually gets good reviews, even from fairly conservative guitar players.

Palmer MI - Speaker Simulators

[kafka]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

I am curious to know, with regards to having hardware amps vs simulations (aka Amp Farm, GTR3 etc), is it recommended to have a combination of both and perhaps a combo mix as well for modern pop? (especially from a studio perspective).

With using the M160, is there a recommended distance/angle?

Is anyone using 8 to 10W type amps to get that 'big' sound or are using mostly 15+W amps to get the big sound? (not necessarily dirty, but bigger/fuller)

Small amps sound big. Big amps sound small. It has to do with the space around the notes. You'll find out what I mean when you start micing them. Just one of those things about guitar. Go figure. There's also no one magic setup that works. Sometimes moving a mic by 1/2" makes all the difference in the world. You just have to put a couple of hours into moving the mic around to figure it out.

As far as amp sims go, I'm sure like any other tool they're fine once you invest the effort into making them into a musical instrument. However, I won't use them, because my habit as a guitar player is to feel the speaker moving in front of me. Listening through the monitors just doesn't do it for me. I'm sure that in time, like learning to play through headphones, I could do it. But I don't want to. I like amps, and don't feel I need to change. The point being, on the average, guitar players can be pretty strange and stubborn people, and plenty of them feel same way I do about it.

[Aaron Miller]

Check out the Egnator Rebel 20. It's got great tone at low volumes and is pretty versatile.

[CJ1973]

Originally Posted by kafka

Small amps sound big. Big amps sound small. It has to do with the space around the notes.

Thanks. I am starting to understand that. Can we go a little further into this concept? considering I really don't have the liberty to try large/medium and small amps, what I am curious to know is

1. Where (in terms of Watt power or size of speaker cone) does one draw the difference between small amps and big amps

2. how does this relate to the type of microphone used when tracking as well as mic distance?

Thanks again!!

[DAWgEAR]

Regarding the closed speaker cabinets (Rivera, Demeter, Randall, etc.), a huge part of the sound of a miced speaker is the position of the mics relative to the cone and relative to each other. In my experience, the enclosed boxes do not allow enough space to creatively position one, not to mention two, mics.

You mentioned Fender. I am having great experiences with a SuperSonic 22 with a MXR 10-band EQ in the effects loop and a selected few pedals in front. It gets me all the tones of my Deluxe Reverb plus a whole lot more. Very versatile.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

Thanks. I am starting to understand that. Can we go a little further into this concept? considering I really don't have the liberty to try large/medium and small amps, what I am curious to know is

1. Where (in terms of Watt power or size of speaker cone) does one draw the difference between small amps and big amps

2. how does this relate to the type of microphone used when tracking as well as mic distance?

Thanks again!!

It used to be that anything 15w and under was considered a 'practice' amp. 15w can be pretty loud with an efficient speaker. Bigger speakers also have greater, but also looser bass response, and with proximity effect, can sound mushy. Little speakers retain their edge, and proximity effect helps to bring the bass into proportion.

This can all be controlled on all amps by moving the mic out. I like to get the mic a little further out so I can get the sound of the entire speaker, instead of focusing on just one part of the cone. As far as mics go, a lot depends on their off-axis response, and how much room sound you're picking up. In bad rooms, your best bet might just to be shove the mic right up in the grill, and minimize how much room sound you pick up. That said, there's usually some place in a room where you can position both the amp and the mic so that it sounds the way you hear it.

[Outlaw Hans]

You're close.

Yo have the m160. Leave that in front of the cab at all times!
Now add a dynamic as close as you can get it to the ribbon and flip phase (or not!). Try to get the phase as close as possible. When you flip phase and not much is happening you're doing it wrong. It should alsmost cancel out the entire sound.

You have a 57 and a m88. Those are GREAT choises. Hoewever the most versatile guitar amp mic is the Beyer 201. As mentioned before if you want more bite you could use the 57 or any other dynamic mic.

The M88 is great in those cases where the big low-end of a ribbon isn't necessary but you still want it to sound full.

switch mics whenever you're recording different or double parts. Even when you think one mic fits the instument better. it does wonders to the stereo spread and intelligibility of a mix. Even better: change guitars and even amp.

Don't be afraid to boost mids. Analog eq of the rough kind (I use MCI) is best for this.


Get low wattage tube amps and crank them.

best eq is the speaker itself (mic placement).

[Schattenmann]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

1. Where (in terms of Watt power or size of speaker cone) does one draw the difference between small amps and big amps

That's a bit difficult to answer. Each amp reacts a different way, as you already know. Some 15w amps will be louder than 25w amps etc... It will also depends on tubes vs solid state, or even what kind of tubes (6L6, EL34 etc...).

Only pet peeve I have against some (very) small amps is that, sometimes, you can't get a totally clean & loud sound. Distortion may appear as soon as you push the volume a bit.

[danly]

Small amps sound big. Big amps sound small.

dude, come on.
yeah jimmy page and hendrix were playing through 5w valve juniors.

How to record good guitar:
use a good mic preamp. make sure the guitar amp is at least on 4.
sometimes a tube d.i. is all you need.
i like the 57, but m160 is a great guitar mic, also the beyer dynamics. secret weapon - hypercardioid dynamic mics like some old ev's work really well.

if you're doing katy perry type stuff, i think all those guitar's sound di. I personally wouldn't use an amp sim, but that's just me.
I think di guitar sounds great with synth music.
OR, if you're playing a strat, position 2 or 4 on the pickup selector gives you that real 80's background guitar sound. like michael jackson rhythm guitar.

oh yeah, and f putting the mic up on a chair. play it how you would play it in real life. unless it's like a fender champ then you probably do have it on a chair anyway.

on pedals,
the tube screamer is a cool pedal. or fulltone ocd. or the keeley stuff. and of course the klon. the rat. boss pedals are meh, except for the tuner. big muff's always fun. you will probably want a compressor pedal as well, but I'm not too experienced there. maybe electro harmonix.

If you wanna be super awesome throw in a little labs ibp.

yeah matchless amps are great. fender deluxe is also Great. SOME of the old Gibson amps are amazing. if you're going with new Vox, get one of the hand wired ones.

i guess that's it. happy rocking.
read slipperman's guide to guitar recording hell.

[CJ1973]

Hi all

Thanks so much for the great knowledge and information. I appreciate it!!
It's awesome to come across so many passionate musicians!

Seems I am already fairly close in covering the Mic aspect. I may look out for an RE20 or Beyer201 in the future to get an almost comprehensive mic collection option. I also have 1037DPA (neve pre) and an API5500Eq. If I perhaps get myself a lunchbox type API512 set up, I think I will have the preamp option covered. Maybe DBX160 or something as a stereo compressor option to bring sound to focus?

With regards to the Amp itself, I have a question in that, is anyone ever worked on a Univox U45B. If so, how would you compare this tone to other similar 8W-10W small combos? Why I ask is I have this Amp and when pushed around the 7-8 mark, it really starts getting a cutty sound. I believe Goodsell Amps make a Unibox now.
Here is a YouTube clip....

Vintage Amp Demos (4/5) - 1966 Univox U-45B - YouTube

I'd love to know your honest thoughts on this particular Amp and what you think it's strength and weaknesses.
I am curious to know what you may recommend considering I already have this, and something that could complement my set up to get an all round studio guitar recording sound/options. Let's assume a budget of 1.5-2K? maybe lesser preferred if I can get around it.

Thanks!!

[Schattenmann]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

I am curious to know what you may recommend considering I already have this, and something that could complement my set up to get an all round studio guitar recording sound/options. Let's assume a budget of 1.5-2K? maybe lesser preferred if I can get around it.

It's highly subjective. Here's what I would do, but keep in mind it's just my personal opinion. Nothing's written in stone.

I'd probably have a look at some modular amps. Randall has a series called MTS. with heads, combos and modules.
MTS Series Landing Page | Amplifiers | Products
and I'd start from there, adding new modules whenever I can.

Egnater also makes modules and amps. I think they are compatible with Randall's. Sadly, they are not available here in Japan so I've never been able to try them.
Egnater Amplification • Modules

Talking about Egnater, as someone already mentioned, you could have a look at the Tweaker or Rebel series.
Egnater Tweaker Product Selector
Egnater Rebel Product Selector

Or you could still have a look at racked preamps. The Mesa Boogie Triaxis might be over your budget but it's a killer machine.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by danly

dude, come on.
yeah jimmy page and hendrix were playing through 5w valve juniors.

How to record good guitar:
use a good mic preamp. make sure the guitar amp is at least on 4.
sometimes a tube d.i. is all you need.
i like the 57, but m160 is a great guitar mic, also the beyer dynamics. secret weapon - hypercardioid dynamic mics like some old ev's work really well.

if you're doing katy perry type stuff, i think all those guitar's sound di. I personally wouldn't use an amp sim, but that's just me.
I think di guitar sounds great with synth music.
OR, if you're playing a strat, position 2 or 4 on the pickup selector gives you that real 80's background guitar sound. like michael jackson rhythm guitar.

oh yeah, and f putting the mic up on a chair. play it how you would play it in real life. unless it's like a fender champ then you probably do have it on a chair anyway.

on pedals,
the tube screamer is a cool pedal. or fulltone ocd. or the keeley stuff. and of course the klon. the rat. boss pedals are meh, except for the tuner. big muff's always fun. you will probably want a compressor pedal as well, but I'm not too experienced there. maybe electro harmonix.

If you wanna be super awesome throw in a little labs ibp.

yeah matchless amps are great. fender deluxe is also Great. SOME of the old Gibson amps are amazing. if you're going with new Vox, get one of the hand wired ones.

i guess that's it. happy rocking.
read slipperman's guide to guitar recording hell.

Well, actually, they didn't always use the biggest amps they could find in the studio. And if you could read, you'd understand that the size of the sound has as much to do with the ambience as anything else. But that's OK, I'll summarize your advice here:

Put the amp on "4". Buy a bunch of things. Oh, and while we're at it, here's something I read on the Internet but didn't understand.

Sad, truly sad.



By the way, in the past 18 months, did you ever get around to trying out something other than Chinese tube mics?

Originally Posted by danly

Personally I only have experience with chinese tube mics. (yet)

Why do I want a tube mic?

[Schattenmann]

Originally Posted by kafka

Well, actually, they didn't always use the biggest amps they could find in the studio. And if you could read, you'd understand that the size of the sound has as much to do with the ambience as anything else. But that's OK, I'll summarize your advice here:

Put the amp on "4". Buy a bunch of things. Oh, and while we're at it, here's something I read on the Internet but didn't understand.

Sad, truly sad.

I imagine someone with a Hughes & Kettner TriAmp trying to follow this advice:
"Put the amp on "4"...OK, let's see...I have 2 gains knobs and a master on each of the 3 channels, plus a master volume and presence...f*ck "

[The Famous Yard]

I fear the op seems to have unwittingly opened a can of worms. As you can see/read there is a lot you can do with recording electric gtr. Start at square one with just a small amp and a 57 (or other mic you already have). You really can't go far wrong with that. I think others (as well as you) are getting carried away and going too deep if you haven't any experience in this area and have simple needs. You don't really want to get into "this is what Jimmy Page used on xxx song" debates.

Start with the above and don't worry too much.

[Schattenmann]

Originally Posted by The Famous Yard

I fear the op seems to have unwittingly opened a can of worms. As you can see/read there is a lot you can do with recording electric gtr. ...
Start with the above and don't worry too much.

Well, we can't always avoid arguing, even when we shouldn't argue. But I agree with you, it may be confusing after a while, especially for someome who's not a guitarist.

If main problem is mic placement, I think it's been answered fairly well. As you said, better stick to the basics.

If main problem is small vs. big amp, there's no ideal answer.
op should just remember that

- some amps offer some power attenuation option (variable wattage knob like on the Egnater Rebel or power switch like on some Mesa Boogie amps)

- a load box can work with any amp and offer up to 120w of attenuation (maybe more, I just know the Palmer)

so, any amp could do the trick and, if it seem too loud for recording, there will still be a way to tame it somehow.

[heyman]

Listen to Outlaw Hans... Lots of good info right there..

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Schattenmann

Well, we can't always avoid arguing, even when we shouldn't argue. But I agree with you, it may be confusing after a while, especially for someome who's not a guitarist.

If main problem is mic placement, I think it's been answered fairly well. As you said, better stick to the basics.

If main problem is small vs. big amp, there's no ideal answer.
op should just remember that

- some amps offer some power attenuation option (variable wattage knob like on the Egnater Rebel or power switch like on some Mesa Boogie amps)

- a load box can work with any amp and offer up to 120w of attenuation (maybe more, I just know the Palmer)

so, any amp could do the trick and, if it seem too loud for recording, there will still be a way to tame it somehow.

There's just so much to it, depending on what you want to sound like. You just have to start somewhere and see what you can do with it. Until you have some hands-on experience, it's impossible to know how it's going to turn out. A 1/2" difference in mic placement can make all the difference in the world. When it comes to mic, while I don't like the 57 very much anymore, it was all I used for years. There's no reason not to try it first, because it's a commonly used benchmark, and it will do the job. You just have to put something up and see where you end up going with it.

As far as power attenuators go, I don't think they're really such a great solution for lowering recording volume. They're better suited for matching your lead volume to your clean volume. I have a Jim Kelley amp with the original attenuator, and that's what my experience has been, at least. I've also got a BiValve with a built-in attenuator, and I don't really use that all that much, either. If volume is an issue, I'd go with a smaller amp and a less efficient speaker to begin with.

[CJ1973]

Would anyone have any experience with Matchless amps? In particular, DC-30, C30/15 etc.
Also, any experience on Fender Princeton amps?

Thank you!!

[Rolf Ebitsch]

Originally Posted by CJ1973

Any experience on Fender Princeton amps?

Thank you!!

I have a Fender Princeton Recording Amp.
The version with the trans impedance power attenuator, overdrive und compressor.

By the way, great sounding amp.
The trans impedance power attenuator in combination with the compressor works very well.

I record that amp with a SM57 - Neve 1073 - Tube Tech CL1B - 2" analog machine.
I'm happy with the result.

R.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by danly

dude, come on.
yeah jimmy page and hendrix were playing through 5w valve juniors.

Well Page did use a 10-15 watt supro for the entire first record. Those opening chords for Good Times, Bad times sound kinda big.

Also used it on Stairway to blah, blah, blah.

One 12 inch speaker, mounted on a piece of plywood, no cabinet.

I think a big guitar sound, even a pretty big modern Metal sound can come from a small amp and speaker. Dark Terror is cool, if you haven't heard it. Tiny Terror if you will never need that much crunch.

+1 on the Slipperman read, it's got some stuff that most people don't try, and it's highly entertaining as well. Smart guy. Pretty wicked intelligent.

To the OP, I would maybe look at a newer modern amp if this is what you are doing genre wise. I love vintage amps to death. Love em'.

However, to do what you need, you should probably look into a newer amp that covers the Fender and Marshall or Boogie thing. AC15 is ok, and pretty versatile, but many of these new amps are much more flexible. And if you are only going to have one amp, and not start an amp collection to get the Holy Grail tone of each species, you might want to look at an all bases covered deal.

Bogner? Many cheaper alternatives out now, in knock offs too. Blackstar, even those Soldano designed Jet City things are pretty damn nice.

There are just soooo many now. We didn't have this kind of choice when I was buying my first amp. That would have been fantastic.

Just my thoughts on this, coming from where you seem to be. All of the music you describe has a pretty modern sheen on it. AC 15...maybe, not sure on the Univox. I have one, and it's ok, but I wouldn't really grab it first to do a modern Pop thing.

Good luck,
john

PS: If you must go down the road of the AC15, see if you can find a used Gibson Gold Tone GA-15. It's really a Trace Elliot design, bought buy Gibson. Was the Vellocette. Same kind of thing, Class A, etc. Probably save some $ that way.

Not real heavy in the crunch dept., but enough, and if you use a line driver, it can get real ballsy.

[tomdarude]

great, first time to use the new post recycler here


First of all: get a Kemper Amp !!

if only just to be ready to record in 1 minute anytime...guitar -> Kemper -> s/p-dif input to DAW...done!

______________________________________________________________________________


PLUS...for those moments, when you have the time and need for some more natural, inspired guitar sounds....I´d have a great big Tweed 1x12" Cab with a ToneTubby fed by:

1) Fender 65 Deluxe Reverb RI or Fender 65 BF Princeton RI for versatile clean sounds

2) old Fender Silverface Champ for some thinner, crunchier Fender tones (those can be had cheap for like 300$)

3) Divided by 13 EDT13/29 head (if you have some extra $$$)

+ some great pedals...(Strymon Timeline/BlueSky/Flint, Okko Twinsonic; MXR Bluebox; Analog Man or Retro-Sonic Chorus, Phaser, Vibe stuff; EHX crazy stuff: like POG2, RingThing, Ravish, Microsynthm etc.)

4) any other nice or weird amp you find over time....


______________________________________________________________________________


mic wise you´re pretty set, I´d say! maybe add some nice ribbon for a different tone... I like Shinybox 46MXC, Coles 4038 and AEA R92

preampwise almost anything can work if stuff its great before in the chain:
elctric guitar favs for me: Chandler TG2, Phoenix DRS for color.... Siemens 276, Realios 9031, Buzz QSP20, or even cleaner ULN-8 pres, Forsell SMP-2 (for ribbons e.g.)

[tomdarude]

ooops.... most important in the studio....I forgot:

this


or this