completely ITB except for compressor/limiter on 2-bus

[jeremycox]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I thought that's why we use mastering guys. If we can do all the buss compression we want at home, why bother to send it out? Anyone can edit a CD, it's their ears and experience you are paying for.

If you are not there to approve of every step, you will get what you didn't ask for. I always attended every mastering session, to not was to be suprised.

I like how you think!
I get it close and my guy uses his ridiculous chain and skill to get it to 100%

[uncle muscles]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I'm pretty happy ITB as well, but plugins to my ears still have not captured the mojo and bulk of classic analog compressors. I was kidding myself for a long time until I picked up a Mohog 1176 and TLA 100, and now they get strapped onto everything.

-R

Tla 100s are noisy boring units.

[BFrederick]

Its amazing that its 2012 and people still fear going through an extra round of AD/DA. Common people!!!! get it together!!!

[Joe Haze]

My system doesn't run all of the latest plugins and even if it did I still enjoy using hardware. I have thought how easy life would be if I sold off 99% of my hardware and got a new HD rig with a ton of plugins and a 2-bus comp.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I thought that's why we use mastering guys. If we can do all the buss compression we want at home, why bother to send it out? Anyone can edit a CD, it's their ears and experience you are paying for.

If you are not there to approve of every step, you will get what you didn't ask for. I always attended every mastering session, to not was to be suprised.

Well, I treat a mastering guy as a final check, and a "collator" of my product. I don't want them to particularly add compression; I do want them to make my tracks sound like an album that belongs together, and if that means some tracks need additional compression, so be it.

If I want the sound of radical compression, I'll add it, not the mastering guy.

If I knew the mastering guy's monitoring as well as my own, I'd attend mastering sessions. Otherwise I'll listen on my system, and ask for revisions where necessary!

But that's what works for me.

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Well, I treat a mastering guy as a final check, and a "collator" of my product. I don't want them to particularly add compression; I do want them to make my tracks sound like an album that belongs together, and if that means some tracks need additional compression, so be it.

If I want the sound of radical compression, I'll add it, not the mastering guy.

If I knew the mastering guy's monitoring as well as my own, I'd attend mastering sessions. Otherwise I'll listen on my system, and ask for revisions where necessary!

But that's what works for me.

I agree with you on this. It's not the me's responsibility to make a track sound the way we want it. I too add my own compression and eq, whatever is needed really. One question for you. How much headroom do you usually leave for the me? Adding my own 2 buss flavor often is a balancing act to try to get the punch I want without getting too close to zero. One might say to track at lower levels but I track at -18 and am not going to change that as I am very familiar with my setup at this point. I like to try to leave about -6 average. You?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by cowboycoalminer

I agree with you on this. It's not the me's responsibility to make a track sound the way we want it. I too add my own compression and eq, whatever is needed really. One question for you. How much headroom do you usually leave for the me? Adding my own 2 buss flavor often is a balancing act to try to get the punch I want without getting too close to zero. One might say to track at lower levels but I track at -18 and am not going to change that as I am very familiar with my setup at this point. I like to try to leave about -6 average. You?

I don't really worry about it to be honest. I make sure I'm not clipping and that I'm not over compressing. If the ME needs digital headroom, he can turn it down.

At least, that's the intention. In practice, there's usually 3-10dB.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I'm pretty happy ITB as well, but plugins to my ears still have not captured the mojo and bulk of classic analog compressors. I was kidding myself for a long time until I picked up a Mohog 1176 and TLA 100, and now they get strapped onto everything.

-R

It's takes a while for some to come around about the entire ITB saga, ITB is nothing but a loudness war as well. Loud, no depth and thin.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Joe Haze

My system doesn't run all of the latest plugins and even if it did I still enjoy using hardware. I have thought how easy life would be if I sold off 99% of my hardware and got a new HD rig with a ton of plugins and a 2-bus comp.

Nothing ever comes around good or the best, "being easy"
Tell that to a Gold Metalists.

[bigfurry]

To the OP-
I think there is a high likelihood you will totally dig a high quality outboard compressor on your 2-mix over an in the box one. Of course, try to finagle the loan of a compressor that was made with this purpose in mind to see if it floats your boat. I'd bet on it. I have found it made a huge difference for me. I do have high quality AD/DA, but I've tried it through "average" ad/da's (say a motu 2408), and it was very much worth it to go otb and back in to hit a buss compressor. Think about it- a comp over the whole mix affects everything, and not just sound quality, but the action and interplay of all of the instruments! Far more impact than an average ad/da roundtrip I'd suggest...

I would go one further. I would suggest eventually expanding to include otb compressor treatments on vocals and bass. The money to improvement ratio is there, IMO. ITB is fabulous- until you directly compare it with high quality outboard. I wish it didn't, the money it costs me is painful! Almost every time I compare the two I curse, and make an ad/da roundtrip and print the track, freeing up my outboard for another task.

But where does it end?! Wait til you try certain comps that make your drums sound like mean heaven

[matucha]

VariMu can be to "soft" for some electronica. Even with RME converters the added flavour can be worth the degradation. But believe me, judging AD degradation of Motu on Motu DA is like checking if the window is clean with dirty and wrong glasses. This class of the converters makes things flatter and the last thing I'd want my preciously sculpted kick and bass to pass through.

Also with electronic music, you don't really have to rely on compressors. Envelopes in the sampler are much more effective and well programed synths rarely need a lot of compression or EQ. Sidechaining is handled very well with plugs...

You can use analog mixbuss compression as a character box, but latest breed of distortion plugs like decapitator, kush ubk1, uad 1176 collection... allows you to get very close with not much effort and much cheaper.

2nd hand Manley Mu is cheap though.

[mpod]

I had interesting experience which is kinda opposite. I was running ton of plugins and itb FX for my mixes. I was never satisfied with my sound. And i always blamed myself for poor mixing skills.

When i tried and when i ordered few outboard instruments (electronic stuff) i was shocked on how good is it sounding and how i need less effects but even when i need them i use ITB FX's which are part of my daw.

The point which i am trying to make with my poor english is that whenever i used strictily ITB synths, drum samples etc. and ITB FX i was almost never satisfied with ITB compression and EQ.

However.... when i plugged outboard gear sound was "already there" and the most funny thing is that when i am using that outboard sound and when i put my ITB FXes it's even somehow better.

My poor conclusion was simple -

crappy software sound in + ITB FX = not satisfied, crappy sound out
good sound in + ITB FX = even better sound out most of the times even with stock plugins..

Now before army attack me i just to clear one thing. This was my experience and my observation. I am not one of people which simply say "hardware sound better" and yes i use ton of software synths (and FX, uad2, nebula etc..). I also noticed that last two years there was literally blazing breakthrough in software synthesis and today we have quite damn good things (U-he, Fxpansion, Reaktor to name a few) as well as FX.

If i have to put myself in some category i would like to say that i am one of "use both, hardware and software, if it sounds good to you then it's good" kind..

To OP: my advice is to not buy anything. Try to find some people with outboard gear you are interesting to buy - test it in every detail, try some different combinations and then decide.

Really you should do it for yourself. It's your music and you need to match your gear and workflow to your own sensibilites in order to achieve your own creative fertile soil Maybe it will turn that this is hardware, maybe software, maybe both, maybe really nothing..it's your choice really

[passmore]

Originally Posted by BFrederick

Its amazing that its 2012 and people still fear going through an extra round of AD/DA. Common people!!!! get it together!!!

I had a famous mix engineer that told me he could hear when a track was dupliacted and was not the orginal audio file.
There are all kinds a anal retentiveness people out there.

[Karloff70]

It's not about whether there is no loss running through an extra lap of converters. It's about the gain of the hardware processing being far greater than that loss.

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Gearslutz App

[DaveUK]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

That's because there are too many changes (none for the better) running through extra conversion stages. Maybe you don't hear it, but some do and they don't like it.

Here, one conversion to track, one conversion at mix, the rest is all analog. That's enough for me.

Why not mix ITB and lose another round of conversion .........:+) joke!

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by passmore

I had a famous mix engineer that told me he could hear when a track was dupliacted and was not the orginal audio file.

That's why famous engineers should spend more time engineering and less time theorizing about it.

-R

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by DaveUK

Why not mix ITB and lose another round of conversion .........:+) joke!

Actually, given his stance on the matter, it's a fair question.

-R

[DaveUK]

Yeah what happened before if you had to bounce?... Or playback 200 times.. Or punch or comp ,or recall ?
Still glad I learned on analogue :+)

[DaveUK]

Back on topic. .buy something good print both see which you prefer :+)

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

That's because there are too many changes (none for the better) running through extra conversion stages. Maybe you don't hear it, but some do and they don't like it.

Here, one conversion to track, one conversion at mix, the rest is all analog. That's enough for me.

Or maybe some just think they hear it, and don't like the idea of it?

Either way, horses for courses. I've never heard anyone dislike a mix because "there was just too many rounds of conversion, man"...

[cowboycoalminer]

It would be very difficult for me to believe that one could hear "extra rounds of conversion" if we sum analog. I know for a sure and certain fact that the benefits of running an ITB mix through a desk and various outboard comps and eq's far outweighs the negligible loss that comes with said practice. Even just running a 2 mix out stereo makes a huge difference. I've tried to like ITB mixing because its so much easier. In the end, I always go back to my analog gear. Theres just no replacing electricity.

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by energizer bunny

If this guy is saying that, I would sit up and take notice (which I just did).

Me too. Cool to see my choices being affirmed.

It's not about whether there is no loss running through an extra lap of converters. It's about the gain of the hardware processing being far greater than that loss.

Yeah, that's what makes it worth the trip.

If I knew the mastering guy's monitoring as well as my own, I'd attend mastering sessions. Otherwise I'll listen on my system, and ask for revisions where necessary!

Makes sense to me, and cuts down on driving which is always a good thing!

Mychal

[Rev. Robb]

I am mostly ITB with a Manley Vari Mu on my 2 buss.

I really like the color the Mu adds to my mix. It's not compressing much, maybe a couple of dB's, but adds a great color which I really like.

Recently I added to my system an InnerTube Sumthang. This totally rocks!

[Palaver]

Originally Posted by Rev. Robb

I am mostly ITB with a Manley Vari Mu on my 2 buss.

I really like the color the Mu adds to my mix. It's not compressing much, maybe a couple of dB's, but adds a great color which I really like.

Recently I added to my system an InnerTube Sumthang. This totally rocks!

Hey Rob,

I just got an InnerTube SumThang as well! Great metering on the output, and it's a wonderful unit to drive some gain into a mixbus compressor. My SumThang is feeding an API 2500/5500 combo. It allows me to hit that threshold properly while keeping the gain stages at a nice level ITB!

I'm digging mine. Glad to hear you're digging your's!

Cheers,
Phil

[javahut]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Or maybe some just think they hear it, and don't like the idea of it?

Either way, horses for courses. I've never heard anyone dislike a mix because "there was just too many rounds of conversion, man"...

Originally Posted by cowboycoalminer

It would be very difficult for me to believe that one could hear "extra rounds of conversion" if we sum analog. I know for a sure and certain fact that the benefits of running an ITB mix through a desk and various outboard comps and eq's far outweighs the negligible loss that comes with said practice. Even just running a 2 mix out stereo makes a huge difference. I've tried to like ITB mixing because its so much easier. In the end, I always go back to my analog gear. Theres just no replacing electricity.

You guys can only speak for what YOU hear with the audio and music YOU are mixing. There is obviously a type of music or audio that you don't work with where it definitely does, without a doubt, degrade some of the fine detail when you convert the mix to analog for 2 bus processing and convert it back to record. I know. I've heard it. It is a specific type of music (electronica, dub, downtempo, ambient) with lots of minute effects and sounds bouncing around the mix. I am using FF800 converters, but the outboard I was using was a Pendulum OCL2, ES8, MDP1, and/or Retro 2A3. So it was not a matter of the outboard being low quality. Even going straight out the converter to the MDP1 and back in there was a noticeable difference in minute sounds and detail of the mix. You can especially hear it on any type of high quality in ear monitors like Westone or UE.

So, it was either that higher end conversion was necessary (although you fanatically claim that almost any outboard gear makes enough difference so as to supersede almost all conversion quality), or that the outboard gear caused the loss in detail.

I won't deny that most types of music, including rock, metal, pop, RnB, etc. can benefit more from the fatness or character that hardware can add over the minute detail I'm speaking of. But with the specific type of music in this case, there are highly desirable minute details in the effects and mix that are lost by taking it OTB (which could certainly possibly not be lost with higher end converters for all I know). You may not notice it if you don't compare it side by side. But it's there (or, in this case, the details are not). If you choose not to believe it, more power to you. But I mixed it... and I compared it... and I heard it. I know what the results were.

You can make your blanket statements all day long, that decent outboard hardware on the 2 bus always benefits any type of audio or music more than conversion quality could hurt it. But I know better.

Maybe you guys don't like ITB mixing because it's actually harder to mix because you must be more precise. Taking it OTB covers up your lack of detailing the mix, and makes it easier by smearing sounds together and adding distortions. I'm not saying that's what's happening. But it could be. It's certainly just as likely as me "just thinking I hear it, and don't like the idea of it".

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Rev. Robb

Recently I added to my system an InnerTube Sumthang. This totally rocks!

Yes indeed. One fine piece of kit.

[jeremycox]

Run the same signal through your conversion 5 times... What comes back not only doesn't null (or really come anywhere close) it sounds very different.
I have lynx and apogee here and the round trip adds some harshness to my top end. Why would i add that here, then send it to my mastering guy so he can send it through another round of conversion. He's got the same bus comp i've got and knows how to set it.

Just my philosophy. YMMV

[cowboycoalminer]

Yes but I wasn't talking about sending a signal through conversion just for conversions sake, or even 5 trips for that matter. AD in once, DA out once for summing, AD in for 2 buss record. This method is pretty much standard practice I would think for analog summing. Hardly a stretch for a qaulity converter to handle 2 trips accurately.

[Peakly]

Originally Posted by javahut

It is a specific type of music (electronica, dub, downtempo, ambient) with lots of minute effects and sounds bouncing around the mix.

But with the specific type of music in this case, there are highly desirable minute details in the effects and mix that are lost by taking it OTB...

Why would the software synths and quantized drum samples you're using have more detail than recording a grand piano, a voice, or real drums? Do samples have more detail than actual instruments?

I listened to some of your mixes on your website. Maybe you simply prefer a more sizzly, digital type sound for the music you're making. In that case, staying all digital might make sense.

Mychal

[BillSimpkins]

I'll try to stay on the original subject here:

I've found that a good analog stereo buss compressor is beneficial over it's plugin counterparts, so to me it is well worth the cost if your studio is bring in money already. There is a noticeable sound difference (usually better) and they tend to keep a more pleasing sound with higher gain reductions than a plugin.

I "personally" would avoid a Manley vari-mu for this purpose just because many mastering engineers use this compressor and it does have a very distinct high-frequency color (I don't know, just thinking that it may be too much in some cases to go through it twice). For similar reasons I would avoid a Shadow Hills mastering compressor for the stereo buss. Maybe go for a GSSL or a Neve? The GSSL sounds pretty sweet and can hit hard enough for more aggressive music.