I figured I'd ask the High Enders as you'd likely have the mics and gear that I do not, and this way I can quickly tell my "client" (broke friend) no, I can't do it because I don't have anything with Neumann/SSL/API/Neve on it.
Anyways, a "client" of mine is recording a pop/folk song; kind of a Carol King/Carpenters thing and wants really "dry", dead meaty 70s drums. Think Rumours, Chilliwack, The Wall maybe (I wouldn't really say they're dry, but that's how she described them; perhaps less room sound then).
I've tried screwing around with tea towels but they just come across as sounding really flat. And my room is anything but dead, it's pretty lively (good and a bad way).
What kind of mic approach am I looking at? Close miking I would think, doesn't sound like a lot of room ambience, but what do I know? I have a 70s Ludwig kit with mahogany shells and Emperor coated on everything if that helps.
This kind of sound is more about room, mic placements and tuning than gear. The sound you are describing was often recorded in a rather dead space, like a drum booth and with fairly basic and minimal micing. I did something similar recently and we used a 60's Ludwig kit with mics on the kick, snare top, toms and spaced pair overheads. Came out really nice, kinda like the sounds you hear on Neil Young's Harvest and After the Gold Rush.
Tuning is important here. For snare I like to tune the top skin way down, but have the bottom a lot higher than you might think. Mess around with it till you lose nasty overtones while still retaining some attack and definition. I like to point the mic almost horisontally across the snare so as to pick up more air and not so much whack. Try not having bottom/resonant heads on the bass drum and toms. Stick a piece of cloth or pillow in the kick and muffle the other drums to taste. I've had luck with towels, gaffer tape, banana peels, whatever.
What cymbals you use is also very important. Modern cymbals are way too bright for this kind of sound. Try to get hold of some crispy, rich, dark ones. I like Zildjan's Konstantinople series. The jazzier and smokier, the better.
Oh, and you need a drummer who's seriously tight and knows what NOT to play.
So, not so much about the gear, that's more like the icing on the cake here.
Hope this helps
This kind of sound is more about room, mic placements and tuning than gear. The sound you are describing was often recorded in a rather dead space, like a drum booth and with fairly basic and minimal micing. I did something similar recently and we used a 60's Ludwig kit with mics on the kick, snare top, toms and spaced pair overheads. Came out really nice, kinda like the sounds you hear on Neil Young's Harvest and After the Gold Rush.
Tuning is important here. For snare I like to tune the top skin way down, but have the bottom a lot higher than you might think. Mess around with it till you lose nasty overtones while still retaining some attack and definition. I like to point the mic almost horisontally across the snare so as to pick up more air and not so much whack. Try not having bottom/resonant heads on the bass drum and toms. Stick a piece of cloth or pillow in the kick and muffle the other drums to taste. I've had luck with towels, gaffer tape, banana peels, whatever.
What cymbals you use is also very important. Modern cymbals are way too bright for this kind of sound. Try to get hold of some crispy, rich, dark ones. I like Zildjan's Konstantinople series. The jazzier and smokier, the better.
Oh, and you need a drummer who's seriously tight and knows what NOT to play.
So, not so much about the gear, that's more like the icing on the cake here.
Hope this helps
Marius
Cool, yeah, got the 70s zildjians: so much more musical than my old Sabian AAXs. Guess I'll have to mess around with muffling then; wonder if ribbon overheads would also cut down on cymbals/high end?
Having said that, for mics I'd use something not so hyped scooped for the kick, like a MD441 or a vintage D12. A ribbon can work for the snare, I've used a Beyer M160, nice ribbon sound but not too rounded off and its supercardioid as well so you get good rejection. For toms and OHs it's the usual suspects. I think I remember hearing they used 414s for the OHs on Rumors, which surprised me a bit.
Cool, yeah, got the 70s zildjians: so much more musical than my old Sabian AAXs. Guess I'll have to mess around with muffling then; wonder if ribbon overheads would also cut down on cymbals/high end?
I'd go condensers for OHs. I like Gefell UM70's. Clear and defined yet the transformers gives them some growl and grease, or maybe that's my 1081's
Put duvets on your walls and all round the kit above too is possible (i.e build a drum tent) , condencers on the snare ( is you have them km84's if not try any other pencil condencers you have .)
When blending your mic's use more of the close ones than rooms or overheads .
For meat on the snare , find the point on an eq to where the low end of the snare sticks out ( around 120 -180 hrz) and bring it up on a tightish q. Bring up the 10k shelf on the top end . If it is still too middley bring down some 750 hrz.
Try using some moon gels on the snare , if you don't have them ,try a wallet on top of it or tape if you have too.
Again a good drummer and a well tuned kit is your starting point
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Put duvets on your walls and all round the kit above too is possible (i.e build a drum tent) , condencers on the snare ( is you have them km84's if not try any other pencil condencers you have .)
When blending your mic's use more of the close ones than rooms or overheads .
For meat on the snare , find the point on an eq to where the low end of the snare sticks out ( around 120 -180 hrz) and bring it up on a tightish q. Bring up the 10k shelf on the top end . If it is still too middley bring down some 750 hrz.
Try using some moon gels on the snare , if you don't have them ,try a wallet on top of it or tape if you have too.
Again a good drummer and a well tuned kit is your starting point
I went through a lot of studios in the 70s, and the mic selection and placement was all over the place. But what was pretty much standard where I went was a pretty dead drum room.
One of the things things that I did to my drums in that time frame was to put a strip (about 1.5 inches wide) of towel under the heads, which stopped the ring. I also briefly took off the bottom heads. That was very popular, but I didn't care for it so much.
I'm not a fan of that sound, I like drums a little more 'live' in tone recorded in a larger, live room. But courses for horses...
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I went through a lot of studios in the 70s, and the mic selection and placement was all over the place. But what was pretty much standard where I went was a pretty dead drum room.
One of the things things that I did to my drums in that time frame was to put a strip (about 1.5 inches wide) of towel under the heads, which stopped the ring. I also briefly took off the bottom heads. That was very popular, but I didn't care for it so much.
I'm not a fan of that sound, I like drums a little more 'live' in tone recorded in a larger, live room. But courses for horses...
Was the towel strip running around the circumference of the shell or across it?
Was the towel strip running around the circumference of the shell or across it?
about a third of the way across the shell. You might have to adjust the width of the towel, that width of between 1 and 1.5 inches worked pretty well for me with my Sonar drums, but I'm sure that every kit is a little different.
I went through a lot of studios in the 70s, and the mic selection and placement was all over the place. But what was pretty much standard where I went was a pretty dead drum room.
One of the things things that I did to my drums in that time frame was to put a strip (about 1.5 inches wide) of towel under the heads, which stopped the ring. I also briefly took off the bottom heads. That was very popular, but I didn't care for it so much.
I'm not a fan of that sound, I like drums a little more 'live' in tone recorded in a larger, live room. But courses for horses...
Better than a towel is a strip of flannel from an old shirt or pjs. I did that as a kid for the dry thing. It was thinner, so the head and rim seated better on the drum. Later we'd take old socks and make a 2"x3" piece and tape it to the head instead of the material under the head.
Basically you want to modify the envelope of the drums to take out the sustain (ring). What the others have said above, start in a dry room or gobo up for a dead space (no extra sustain from the room). Minimal mic (3 or 4 mics) set by ear for balance and phase. Kick typically had outside head removed and a pillow or blanket in it along with one of the mics. You got the initial attack and little sustain / ring from the shell with that method. Towels/padding on the toms and snare basically did the same function (don't overlook using only one head on toms). Now with Transient Designers you have one more tool to modify the envelope too so experimenting with them may help get what you are after (hardware unit or the software Transient Designer plugs) without as much effort. Expanders can act as soft gates which may be an additional tool to cut sustain/ring.
This was recorded in an ordinary bedroom, but I took cheapass 5x7 rugs from home depot and walled the kit in by draping the rugs over racks that hold clothing. You can improvise how the rug-wall is built, but doubling them over and surrounding your kit will get you most of the way to that vibe.
The rest is damping the drums. Duct taping paper towels to the toms, no front head on the kick and a pillow inside, and a single layer of thin t-shirt covering half the snare head.
And none of it means a damn thing if the drummer 'hits' the drums. To really nail the 70's vibe, you gotta 'touch' them instead.
This was recorded in an ordinary bedroom, but I took cheapass 5x7 rugs from home depot and walled the kit in by draping the rugs over racks that hold clothing. You can improvise how the rug-wall is built, but doubling them over and surrounding your kit will get you most of the way to that vibe.
The rest is damping the drums. Duct taping paper towels to the toms, no front head on the kick and a pillow inside, and a single layer of thin t-shirt covering half the snare head.
And none of it means a damn thing if the drummer 'hits' the drums. To really nail the 70's vibe, you gotta 'touch' them instead.
Gregory Scott - ubk
gregory this sounds amazing
can you please go through the drum micing and signal chain as well please?
thank you
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cant u see it all makes perfect sense expressed in dollars and cents pounds shillings and pence
This was recorded in an ordinary bedroom, but I took cheapass 5x7 rugs from home depot and walled the kit in by draping the rugs over racks that hold clothing. You can improvise how the rug-wall is built, but doubling them over and surrounding your kit will get you most of the way to that vibe.
The rest is damping the drums. Duct taping paper towels to the toms, no front head on the kick and a pillow inside, and a single layer of thin t-shirt covering half the snare head.
And none of it means a damn thing if the drummer 'hits' the drums. To really nail the 70's vibe, you gotta 'touch' them instead.
Gregory Scott - ubk
Greg ! When are you going to do a cd ? or at least cd's worth of music . Love your stuff . My approach on the 70's sound would be a a different vibe . There are so many variations though . I dig the ultra dead room with no ambiance , Close mic it all , Use thick skins like evans emporer X . Maybe a little tape on the Toms if needed , I dont think the tea towel thing would really sound that great . Even moon gels will work . Hmm maybe I'll do a 70's drum pack seeing as I see tons of threads on this subject . I usually think of ABBA or the commodores as being my fav drum sounds .
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Greg ! When are you going to do a cd ? or at least cd's worth of music . Love your stuff . My approach on the 70's sound would be a a different vibe . There are so many variations though . I dig the ultra dead room with no ambiance , Close mic it all , Use thick skins like evans emporer X . Maybe a little tape on the Toms if needed , I dont think the tea towel thing would really sound that great . Even moon gels will work . Hmm maybe I'll do a 70's drum pack seeing as I see tons of threads on this subject . I usually think of ABBA or the commodores as being my fav drum sounds .
Please do.. I'd be interested...
Im trying to get that 70s sound in ssd so there are some great tips here...
This was recorded in an ordinary bedroom, but I took cheapass 5x7 rugs from home depot and walled the kit in by draping the rugs over racks that hold clothing. You can improvise how the rug-wall is built, but doubling them over and surrounding your kit will get you most of the way to that vibe.
The rest is damping the drums. Duct taping paper towels to the toms, no front head on the kick and a pillow inside, and a single layer of thin t-shirt covering half the snare head.
And none of it means a damn thing if the drummer 'hits' the drums. To really nail the 70's vibe, you gotta 'touch' them instead.
Gregory Scott - ubk
That's a cool sound. Are you putting an album together? EP? Just tracking a song to show off how awesome UBK products are?
I've spent as much time as anyone else trying to get this kind of sound at home.
Unless you are in a nice studio, overheads are troublesome. Keep them very low in the mix.
Note that you don't need a completely dead room, or any absorption at all if you're using mostly close mics, especially hypercardioids, and compression/gating.
A low-mid tuning for snare is good. Tune all the way down until lugs are loose then tune up with your fingers until you can't move the lugs anymore. Then--3 quarter turns per lug on the top head and 4 on the bottom. Muffle with wallet. The closer you put the wallet to the center of the snare, the snappier it'll be. SM57 for a slightly more raw early-mid 70s, and small condenser for a hi-fi soft mid-late 70s (The Wall "Hey You", that type of thing). Then you'll want to look into compression. Let the transient through with a slow attack, but you want to clip the decay of the hit so that it's very short and punchy. You can also try gating, but gating won't give you punch. For a hi-fi sound boost EQ around 6kHz-12kHz..just experiment. You can get cute by cutting 500Hz, but it will start to sound more like something from 79-83.
For kick, I find you want a dynamic mic halfway inside the drum pointing roughly at the beater. Blankets pressed firmly against head using a weight or boom stand bottom to hold in place. Tune all the way down till flabby and then just give each lug a turn or so. The lower the tuning the better I find. Compress just like you did the snare. Although it's not quite as crucial. Use a spectrum analyzer to see where the fundamental is. Boost that for a lot of thump if you want. And then experiment with a hi-pass filter somewhere around 50Hz-100Hz. The higher you go with the hi-pass filter, the further you slide into the early 70s.
Muffle all the toms with tissues/tape/towels/etc (especially the bottom heads). Mic them individually so it's all very intimate.
The last time this topic came up a few months ago, the guy ended up sticking the drum kit into a large WhisperRoom with gates on the mics and voila... Carole King, Carpenters, Rufus, Chic, Eagles, etc etc.
His gripe was that he didn't want that sound.
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Lots of tape on skins (to me a moon gel wont do it, its not enough), low pitch tuning, thick skins (pin stripe), close mic, 421 & 441 are your friends, you need some slight cliping somewhere (if possible, record hot to tape, no dolby/dbx), big pillow in bass drum, no front skin, dry booth...
It takes about 8 moon gels to get the effect of one scotch taped tissue. The only real purpose of moon gels is if you're working with a loaner kit and you don't want to 'damage' the heads with tape residue.
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