The Real Time Compression/Stretching Machine ?

[crosscutred]

If you can put up with the speed changing the pitch too then a tape machine with varispeed will work very well.
Pitch might not be an issue on drum loops.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by crosscutred

If you can put up with the speed changing the pitch too then a tape machine with varispeed will work very well.
Pitch might not be an issue on drum loops.

Thanks for your input and thoughts. And yes, for sure in the case I'm talking about pitch and speed is a big factor. Hence the word "Time Compression/Stretching". Changing tempo of the loop, but keeping pitch/key the original. Or Changing pitch/key of the loop, but changing the tempo. This is Time Compression/Stretching (Time Compression = Faster, Time Stretching = Slower).

I did already think the possibility the fact they used analog tape to slow down or speed up their samples (as anything slowed down or sped up on analog tape would be flawless sounding), BUT this would have changed the pitch. Plus it was looped. So.... ??? Yea, weird.

[stoplaughing]

The best way to do this is not the fastest...but you speed up/slow down and render in real time. I made a small program that does it- PM me and I'll send it to you.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by stoplaughing

The best way to do this is not the fastest...but you speed up/slow down and render in real time. I made a small program that does it- PM me and I'll send it to you.

Hey right on. I most definitely am not worried about how long something takes. Being like that is what has killed quality control IMO. I'm in no rush ever.

Even though I dislike software and am very skeptical of it doing this particular job properly, I'll PM you to give it a try. In any case, I greatly appreciate you and your diligent work in even being able to make a program in the first place !

Talk Soon

And lets keep this thread alive as, I really still am wondering if there is a Outboard Hardware box that does this best ? Waiting for suggestions from those that did side by side comparisons.

[flipwilson]

I dig the Roland vp9000. I've not compared it to the competition though.

[Infa]

Originally Posted by flipwilson

I dig the Roland vp9000. I've not compared it to the competition though.

Wow ! Great looking and sounding piece from what I've read on it. Thanks for the input man ! Dang, its 10 years old and seems to still be the BMOC in this field huh ? Impressive. Odd I never heard if this piece.

I guess its competition would be the Eventide pieces. H3000 or H7600. Though, it appears that the Roland VP9000 is dedicated to do this exact feature, whereas Eventide's pieces really are "effects processors" that happen to have 1 effect that does this function.

I've learnt over time, that a dedicated box that focuses on one (or few) function(s) really sounds a lot better than those "does all" units.

I would really like to hear a shoot out test on Time Compression/Stretching between this Roland VP9000, Eventide's stuff and other top end similar functioning units. Maybe someone will chime in to share their experiences on them if they have ?

[NYMo]

Its was most probably done on an Akai 1100/3000/6000 etc

Thats how timestretching was done in the 80/90s anyway !

[Infa]

Anyone else got any input ? There's got to be more gear out there for this.

So, how about the Roland VP-9000 vs Eventide's best model ? Which is better ? Any experiencers ?

I've heard about a machine called a Publison IM90 for this too. Wonder how it ranks ?

[Bassmankr]

Might want to check out the Lexicon 2400. They show up on ebay from time to time under $100. Here is some info on them.

Gary Noble Show: Lexicon 2400 - One of the 1st. Time Compressor/Expanders

[MIKEHARRIS]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Might want to check out the Lexicon 2400. They show up on ebay from time to time under $100. Here is some info on them.

Gary Noble Show: Lexicon 2400 - One of the 1st. Time Compressor/Expanders

the 2400 was the best at the time...included ability to VSO drive the playback machine

[Infa]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Might want to check out the Lexicon 2400. They show up on ebay from time to time under $100. Here is some info on them.

Gary Noble Show: Lexicon 2400 - One of the 1st. Time Compressor/Expanders

Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS

the 2400 was the best at the time...included ability to VSO drive the playback machine

Great info guys. Thanks for this ! I will look into it as well

So basically now we got:

1 - Lexicon 2400

2 - Roland VP-9000

3 - Akai 1100/3000/6000

4 - Eventide (whatever best model modern to old)

So has anyone done a shootout between these ? Or have a experienced comparison to report between these ? Which one is the best ?

[TheLastByte]

Eventide Comp/Expansion H3000 Digital Algo sucked big time - most of that was done using in the Sampler Board 11 seconds or 32.5 seconds @44.1kHz which offered very little (Music as in Rap, Dance, RnB) time-stretch Algo Freedom (It was radio & Broadcast),

Kinda same with the Lexicon 1200/C/C+ & 2400's (Though they were TV Broadcast monsters costing near 35K$USD New in 1988/1990 (Now 300 Bucks ebay for a 2 sec stretch) - H3000's were Radio Production unit's H3000B+ and their main gimmick was varispeed (Oscillator) on synced to a 1/4 " tape unit using Control (Crystal Sync varispeed - this required a Special H3000 Modified). 2 differing methods.

The Ensoniq ASR-10/EPS 16+ was a great unit for time-stretching/Compressing as were most EMU-E Series Samplers (Still are - and used to be the Rap favourite for Stretching as it was like using a HD recorder. AKAI's worked though S950/1000/1110's up to 3000's were not Stereo Phase locked thus aliasing would arise 5000/6000 & Z-4/Z-8 were great! - a Fatboy-Slim type thing is done sweeping the loop slowly until it's about to hit it's "AUTO-SAMPLE LOOP" Feature. SP1200's an AKAI MPC 3000's did short bursts though Mono only.

THE EMU EMAX/ and HD III were great Time stretch units and continue to be - they had a certain Algo built in for it just as for Loop capture EMU-e64 or E6400 etc (Better and more accurate with decent STRETCHING (No Micky Mousing or Dog Growling like a DAW will give you!)

The for sure.....Rap & RnB - Clean ASR-10/EPS16+ Samplers with Digital in/Out worked well (SPDIF cost big back when 16 Meg was huge memory) 48/44.1/32/28khz
Hope that helps you out!

[Infa]

Originally Posted by TheLastByte

- (see original post above) -

Wow TheLastByte, thanks for this very informative and well thought-out post. It most definitely helps !

Funny thing, is we have a ASR10 in the arsenal, just never thought to try it for such. Is it a feature in the effects ? Or how do you do it on there ?

I'm a start experimenting with the ASR10 now -- I'll report back.

Thanks again man ! Seriously helped.

[Bassmankr]

I thought the Lex 2400 worked in REAL TIME for a max 1/4 shrink or 1/3 expansion of it's total program length instead of as an off line sampler with a very short memory time. Specs here: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~dattorro/Lexicon.htm Meaning you could take a full 10 minute clip from a TV show and shrink it 7 1/2 minutes or expand it to 13 1/3 minutes without artifacts (or even take a 100 minute movie and shrink it to 75 minutes or expand it to 133 minutes). I've never used one but is my understanding about the unit right?

[TheLastByte]

I'm pretty sure with the 1200/2400 TC/EXP from Lexicon you still were required to use RS422 and Sync both Video tape and Audio and then "SHIFT THE TIME" as when you use a differing Frame Rate on Video....say 29.9 NTSC Frames verses PAL/Seacam 25 Frames then you end up with the Picture running faster/Slower then the Audio...."I love Lucy" IIRC was the 1st TV Show to use this method as for Speeding up the show more TV Commercials could be thrown into a Half hour or 1 hour time-slot.

Though no....the 2400 was not a Massive Sampling device - it was an almost "SYNC STATION" in it's own right where you could push and pull various programme timing on....or off.....making these units "Gold". Again....Their value (The Lex 1200 & 2400) came in as those units did all the calculations for you - This it removed a great deal of "Hit & Miss" Approach stuff and made VARISPEED VSO Operation very quick and simple to do.

The 1st Generation of Sampling Devices we call "SAMPLERS" were naturally "PITCH SHIFTING DEVICES" as alongside SAMPLING when you went up or down a few Semitones you gained extra speed in Audio and or Lost it! The ENSONIQ EPS16+ and ASR10 Samplers were a favourite as their were not RACK MOUNT devices to begin with, and within their (FX engines which were the beginnings of the DP4+ & DP4 Pro) were also a variety of Programs available such as Time Stretch/Expand, Compression, Limiting, Ducking, Gating, and a few Mangle type Algo's that used to Multiply & Contort the Sampled waveforms making things you Sampled come out as NEW CREATIONS of already set waveforms etc.

Being Phase Locked Stereo Helped a Great Deal - and remember the Original Audio Sampled was often at a lower Bit Rate and Sample Rate (Say 16 bit 22.4Khz) which would then go into an Ensoniq Algo and be Time Stretched/Expanded or Mangled into serious DUST.....These functions took time though....as the unit had 16 Megabytes (NOT GIGS) of Memory - so you had to make sure you left at least 2 or 4 Megs for the Algo operation to work! I.E If you tried to Stretch a 15 Meg Waveform you might end up waiting 4 days for it to compute as their was little memory to work with! Though Stretch a 4 sec 22.2Khz Loop and the Ensoniq would power through it in maybe 30 seconds, and I'd say that all the filters that were in place as well made this kinda of Algo popular as a drumbeat would come back really quite un-effected - sounding that extra 2 seconds longer matching 120 BMP!

THe Eventide H3000's worked by using the Capstan & motor, by controlling these with a Special board and Sync Oscillator, thus the VSO option came along - For Radio Broadcast the H3000B+ (B meaning Broadcast version) Also had the TimeSqweeze Option where if the H3000 had a Sampling Board & the Algo it could again compute the time wanted, and re-sample the memory contents to make it shorter or longer.

So a 5 Second Stinger or Sweeper like (Your Listening to 3XCY in India) would compress from the original 7 second "Actual Length" Often it sounded ok, often not! It was all (Like using sampling) very subjective with regards to results!

Hope that helps
Cheers
TLB.

[Bassmankr]

Makes sense the Lex's kept video and audio in sync during time shrink/stretch. The big question for the OP is if he has to buy something will the Lex do a shrink/expansion conversion in real time without artifacts of audio only? It seems off the top of my head they could do audio only for radio/jingle work (thought I saw that in their old marketing info posted on those above links).

[TheLastByte]

No the Lex will mot work - that's broadcast RS422/BNC connectors anyway - doorstop junk know!
A different option used by CBS/BBC/NBC/ABC

I think if the OP is asking re music then you got to remember that heaps of those rap records had so much LOW FI going on and the Vinyl Hiss Sample was big in itself (The old 33+1/3 RPM Sample) that used to sit under or over heaps of rap tracks from 88-98 until clean came back into vogue again!

That's all Samplers dude.....Take your pick as back then a 1200/2400 was 12 or 24 Thousand Bucks! Eventides 4-7$K so Sampling was the way to go lo-fi!
TLB.

[Bassmankr]

The audio I/O of the Lex was with left/right balanced XLR connectors. It looks like it would work for audio only but may still need to be connected to some sort of transport controls. I see they are going for more than $100 now so other cheap options of equal quality may be a better route regardless.


Pic of rear of unit (scroll down):
LEXICON 2400 AUDIO STEREO TIME COMPRESSOR EXPANDER 2400 | eBay

Lexicon 2400 smackdown? Best Pitch Shifting - Avid Audio Forums

[TheLastByte]

Dude.........he knows........Simple! he's got an ASR-10 sampler

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Infa

I'm talking about Beastie Boys, Tone Loc, Dust Brothers, etc.. They all had absolutely flawless non-artifact sounding samples, and after I have found the originals to them, I realized they were massively time stretched/compressed.

Heads up: a lot of those 'samples' on the bigger budget productions from that era were re-recorded soundalikes, and they were verrrry good at copping the vibe. Sometimes blended in with the chopped up loop from an sp1200 or similar if they actually got clearance for the sample.

It was also common to sample the loop in at super low speed off the deck and max out the sample length, so you could have the most info to work with when you stretched it; this put your artifacts in the lower freqs which, surprisingly, sounds a lot smoother when pitched up than if the artifacts were in the hf's to begin with.

They also mucked about with sample rates a lot too, those guys knew how to work their machines for everything that had.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[TheLastByte]

Originally Posted by u b k

Heads up: a lot of those 'samples' on the bigger budget productions from that era were re-recorded soundalikes, and they were verrrry good at copping the vibe. Sometimes blended in with the chopped up loop from an sp1200 or similar if they actually got clearance for the sample. It was also common to sample the loop in at super low speed off the deck and max out the sample length, so you could have the most info to work with when you stretched it; this put your artifacts in the lower freqs which, surprisingly, sounds a lot smoother when pitched up than if the artifacts were in the hf's to begin with.They also mucked about with sample rates a lot too, those guys knew how to work their machines for everything that had.
Gregory Scott - ubk

Yeap agreed on those techniques Gregory mentioned - All plus 100% those guys, especially those whom used the Akai S950 & an MPC60/MKII and/or MPC-3000 alongside maybe an ASR-10, CZ-100 & TR-808 Drum Unit had to squeeze every last Inch out of what they had (Grand Master Flash & The Furious 5 are a great example of this, as were the Beastie Boys etc.)

I think we also need to remember that in the race for Digital Sampling back then an EMAX/EMU SP1200.MPC 60 Drum Units/Sequencers were considered "Junk" by many after the Akai S1000/1100 units came out - again those units did not not Phase Lock Stereo, though Mono processing made those loops sound great with Studio outboard processing! It was always Interesting to see as "New Samplers were released, the sample rates became hard 32kHz to 44.1/44kHz.....No 12kHz or 24.2 or other divisions - strange huh....and people wonder why the older EMU samplers still get KUDOS - the EMU Ultra5000 & E64, E6400 etc! Those units alongside an ASR-10 (Creative/Sound-blaster bought both ensoniq and EMU.....and it all ended very quickly for hardware?) Seriously Though.....Just pondering a Lexicon 2400 was $30-K USD in 1984-1990 makes ones Head Spin - I mean that was very serious coin - Guess you just need all the RS422 Video Decks & ATR Tape recorders running in Sync with Word-clock (Yes even as we know it in 2013) both the video & audio!

TLB.