Practical gain staging in modern DAW

[frans]

It doesn't matter where things go wrong with digital and gain, because once they did, it carries through.
In front of the A/D: keep your peaks at least below -6dB*, because of inherent technical tricky stuff, the peakmeter is a bloody liar. Repeat: peakmeters in DAWs lie, all the time. Record with 24 bits, because your harddisk and system most likely don't sound worse than if you used 16 bits.
*debatable, some would say -10, -18 and so on, the bottom line is that all higher then -6 is most likely not to be trusted

On the track: keep the signal below you chosen maximum (maybe -10, maybe.. here we go again) and try to stay below that IN plugins, BETWEEN plugins and AFTER the plugins. Some plugs have no metering - too bad.

On the summing bus (no matter if inside or outside) keep it below clipping or sounding funny, in a DAW, just don't go too close to 0dB, how about you usual chosen -6dB or -10 or...

On the master, if it's going to a masterin house later, you could just stay well under 0dB and be okay. You could put a limiter at the end of you chain here just to listen what limiting will do to the balance of your mix, but you make sure it's bypassed before you bounce your mix. If you don't give the mix to a professional mastering house, you can leave the limiter on to act as an airbag to catch the occasional peak that would clip.

[peeej1978]

There's already some excellent threads on GS that address your exact questions theoretically and practically. Happy reading!


Sent from my HTC Desire

[hasbeen]

The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes (restored)

Please read this thread! Welcome!

[MarkyGoldstein]

Adding tracks makes the sum louder. The more you add, the more you need to trim down the channels. Also try to record minus 12 to minus 20 db (to avoid converter distortion) and keep the levels throughout the itb chains at minus 3 to minus 6.. keep an eye on your plugin levels.. And use your ears and listen for the sweetspot..

[NYCruiser]

[QUOTE=MarkyGoldstein;7891301]Adding tracks makes the sum louder. The more you add, the more you need to trim down the channels. QUOTE]

Great post. I haven't heard anyone say it as simply as this.

[LimpyLoo]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

Please read this thread! Welcome!

The whole thing? I've been picking away at that thread for months, and I still haven't read everything.

Seriously, I've spent hours upon hours on that thread. Someone needs to abridge that shit.

[Teserac]

Originally Posted by LimpyLoo

The whole thing? I've been picking away at that thread for months, and I still haven't read everything.

Seriously, I've spent hours upon hours on that thread. Someone needs to abridge that shit.

Yes , quite long but very very interesting.

Print it, and go with it to the toilet every time is required. I assure you it will be read in 4-5 days and you will increase a lot your knowledge about the gain staging

And without waste of time

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by Teserac

Yes , quite long but very very interesting.

Print it, and go with it to the toilet every time is required. I assure you it will be read in 4-5 days and you will increase a lot your knowledge about the gain staging

And without waste of time

Exactly how I read it! On the throne!

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by SoundIT

1. GAIN MANAGEMENT WITH MASTER FADER

Is it ok just to pull master fader down until it stays below 0?...

If you are already in the digital realm, meaning you are mixing and/or using virtual instruments and your analog tracking has already taken place and you haven't clipped during that tracking then it is effective to pull down the master fader to prevent clipping; The only clipping that would happen would be at the D-A stage. However you will be reducing the dynamic range of your content by lessening it's potential maximum output level at the master fader if you print the mix with the fader set that way (and that's not necessarily a problem depending on your desires).

But if you're tracking to digital, meaning you're using an A-D converter while tracking, then it is not effective to pull down the software master fader (or any virtual fader) to prevent clipping because the clipping is happening at the A-D stage, before the signal is digital and it's clipping the A-D converters and your tracks are being printed with that distortion.

2. GAIN MANAGEMENT WITH TRACK FADERS

Is it ok just to select all tracks and just pull the faders down until master bus stays under 0...

Yes that's fine so long at the tracks were not already clipping the A-D when they were recorded. If they were then pulling their virtual faders down will prevent you from clipping the D-A but won't do anything to improve the sound quality of any already clipped tracks made during the initial analog to digital conversion.

With analog desk this should not be done..?

Well the circuits are designed to work at their most linear at a calibrated "line level" which is where the faders would be if they were at unity, assuming the incoming signal was also at or around line level. Now sometimes you have to pull faders down to prevent over-driving the next piece in the the chain. But if you find yourself in that position there is probably a reason the signal is so hot to begin with and that reason can probably be addressed without pulling down the faders as the only option.

[ofie]

Originally Posted by LimpyLoo

The whole thing? I've been picking away at that thread for months, and I still haven't read everything.

Seriously, I've spent hours upon hours on that thread. Someone needs to abridge that shit.

try reading with a 64bit pc

[kooz]

Recording and mixing should be done with ears, not eyes; right brain, not left, and that means a wide open audio space...which in a 24 bit world is quite attainable and immense.

I don't know if this is proper or correct - it's probably regarded by REAL electronics/engineering people as rogue/cowboy - but my console meters give me an idea of how much signal my DAW is contending with so that I don't have to pay too much attention to the DAWs UI, which I find most distracting. maybe I have ADOS (Attention Deficit Oh Shiny!) This seemed to be the simplest way:

I did my alignment with a scope and an oscillator, and had the scope "see" the waveforms going thru the console; when the console line inputs (coming from my DAW) started to get square-topped waveforms, the converter output was adjusted to just clip; same for my console buss outputs clipping at the same time as my converter inputs. This makes my alignment somewhere in the -24dBFS=+4dBu=0VU range, give or take maybe half a dB, which is within published spec of the console...and everything sounds great.

if you're using a mixed bag of pres, you do have to make a decision as to how to calibrate your converters to accommodate the way you work with your gear and where you like to run it so that it sounds the best to you. For that, only you have the answer.

[teo]

Originally Posted by SoundIT

Hi,

If I manage my individual tracks without clipping, but master (without plugins) is going too hot.. I know we prevent this from happening but...

1. GAIN MANAGEMENT WITH MASTER FADER

Is it ok just to pull master fader down until it stays below 0?
I think there should be no problem at all because DAWs are floating point systems..? Am I wrong? And shouldn´t affect sound more than just adjusting volume?

Yes, in modern DAWS the headroom is for all intents and purposes infinite, so bringing down the master fader prevents main bus clipping, but...

If you apply proper gain staging, you should be able to mix without lowering the master fader, no matter how many tracks you have. It's been done for years, and some (me included) still do. If you find your self clipping the stereo bus during all (or most) of your mixes, chances are you are recording to hot. If you clip it only once in a while, you probably did not "plan" your mix levels properly. It happens.

If you record at correct levels, you'll get rid of the problem without having to worry about it.

[drew]

Originally Posted by LimpyLoo

Seriously, I've spent hours upon hours on that thread. Someone needs to abridge that shit.

Pretend Yellow is Red.

Abridged enough?

[LimpyLoo]

Originally Posted by drew

Pretend Yellow is Red.

Abridged enough?

Hey look, I enjoyed reading it. Learned a bit, even.


I'm just saying that as a resource, it's a bit unwieldy.

[thehightenor]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

Exactly how I read it! On the throne!

Don't forget to re-cycle that paper

tht

[teo]

Originally Posted by drew

Pretend Yellow is Red.

Abridged enough?

Post of the year!

[LimpyLoo]

Originally Posted by teo

Post of the year!

[SoundIT]

MIXING IN DAW

So there are just two rules:

1. Don´t clip inside any individual track/aux/mix bus
2. Don´t clip in the master

[kafka]

I always create mix groups of stems so I can lower the overall volume while maintaining balance. Other tracks, like direct drums, get their own group before the drum buss. Continually assessing for any mud and grit, and backing off accordingly has greatly improved the clarity of my mixes.

[_Ludovico]

Originally Posted by drew

Pretend Yellow is Red.

Abridged enough?

[waxx]

very simple, work in 24bit and stay out of yellow on your vu meters anytime but the last stage of mastering (if you do it yourself). 24bit is highter dynamic range than we can capture with our ears and digital does not ad any noisefloor or distortion if used right.

I personally record -18dBFS on the convertors at least, and keep my signal under 0dBVU anytime in a digital setup. You can push tubes and transfo's in an analog device, but in digital world pushing the volume to the limit only sounds ugly.

[Slikjmuzik]

Use your ears, if you hear crackling, turn it down and balance everything else to it. I just make sure I'm not clipping my converters or my 2buss. No issues here.

[u b k]

Once you've got a clip-free mix that rocks, send it to an ace mastering engineer so he can clip it good and proper!


Gregory Scott - ubk

[deft_bonz]

I mix successfully in Logic gainstaging before and after any plugin (synth or fx) at -12 dBFS (reading the Logic meterm - whether they lie or not it's another disscusion). I started just a couple of months ago with this, and I think mixing got easier and sounds better, although I haven't had clipping before.


PS: And when I go OTB (means disengaging most plugins) I already have the right gain to run my outboard hot

[SoundIT]

Thanks for practical advices!

This has been nice lesson for me since I made previous commercial mixes ITB 10 years ago... We just need so much self-discipline here... I just can not throw plugins without checking levels..

SO IF THIS IS OUR GOAL

1. Don´t clip inside any individual track/aux/mix bus
2. Don´t clip in the master

HOW CAN WE GET THERE?
BEST TIPS SO FAR:

1. keep the signal below you chosen maximum (maybe -10, maybe.. here we go again) and try to stay below that IN plugins, BETWEEN plugins and AFTER the plugins (Posted by Frans, This is tough one, huh)
2. create mix groups of stems (Thanks Kafka!)

[guavadude]

The real problem is in the metering and the gain structure.
You can solve that for $10 by getting the Klanghelm VU meter. It's an old school calibrating VU meter with peak indicator and a gain trim. I use one as the first and last insert on every channel (and sometimes after every plug in on Gtr channels with lots of gain fx), on every submix bus and on the master before and after final compression.
This is all saved in my Logic template.

I usually set the meter calibrated at -10 or -12, but you can find whatever works best for you. There are Dual and Solo (single) trim versions for stereo insertions.

Done.

This immediately helped my mixes. My gain is right during record, I'm hitting plug ins at the sweet spot and I'm checking to make sure plugins don't add too much gain.

Occasionally I still have to pull the master fader VU insert back a few db before the mix glue compressor but this let's me always keep my master fader at 0 for consistency.

To me, having the gain trim right there with the old school VU with great meter ballistics is what made the difference.

[lectric]

Originally Posted by guavadude

I usually set the meter calibrated at -10 or -12, but you can find whatever works best for you. There are Dual and Solo (single) trim versions for stereo insertions.

You calibrate the led for -10 or -12 peaks or 0vu=-12db???

[nulautre]

Originally Posted by drew

Pretend Yellow is Red.

Abridged enough?

WINNING!

[guavadude]

Originally Posted by lectric

You calibrate the led for -10 or -12 peaks or 0vu=-12db???

Ovu=-12db.