Two kick drums

[Jason Poulin]

I'm tracking a two bass drum kit pretty soon...

- I have the two Km184's in recorderman setup on OH
- 57 on snare
- 504's on 3 toms
-maybe a sm81 on hats... depending
- TLM 103 on one kick
- U99 FOK facing the right bassdrum (most used)

I also have a d112 to put on the second kick but I'll probably end up triggering it with the TLM 103 sound if the difference is too drastic...

But my real question is... My FOK mic U99, do I put it in front of the main kick drum or in between the two of them.
I'm going to experiment but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears! litterally...

Also, does anyone like to use two kick mics around the kick (one inside, one outside)and one FOK 4' to 8' away for kick sound?

I'm looking for that massive kick
thanks

Jason

[heinz]

maybe the drummer will consider double-pedal on single kick?

[Jason Poulin]

you know heinz,

I considered that... he really likes his two natural kicks (yamaha maple custom, very nice)

I'll talk about it with... I think the pros of doing this will be much better since I only have so many mics!

Thanks

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Jason Poulin
I also have a d112 to put on the second kick but I'll probably end up triggering it with the TLM 103 sound if the difference is too drastic...

Why not let the kick drums sound different? They do in the room, don't they? (All of the double kick drummers I know use two different sized kick drums - either a 20" and a 22"
or a 22" and a 24")

[BattleAngel]

Actually, I think a lot of the rock drummers who I've met who use two kick drums do it for feel reasons and not for sonic ones. They like feeling like the snare is dead center. Many have symetrical set ups, even down to the cymbals. I know that Mike Portnoy from dream theater sets his kit up like this. I think usually the two bass drums are the same size. I'd make pretty sure to get them both sounding the same especially if it's any kind of metal.

[Jay Kahrs]

Yeah, unless you have two different sized kicks they should be miked to sound identical.

Rule of thumb. Tuned indentical. Sound indentical.

If your limited with mics just trigger them.

[BattleAngel]

Yeah, if you're doing metal or whatever you might as well trigger regardless ;-)

[NathanEldred]

Most metal/hard rock drummers preferred sampled kick, even with the best drums, tuning, and mic setup. Metal is all about the limited dynamic, drop to 35 hz , reduced low midrange kick drum. It takes some serious front end, processing, and particularly the player to get anything remotely close to what a triggered sample can provide.

[smoothmoniker]

dackita dackita bam

dackita dackita bam

two kick drums and a microphone ....





(i sense a nu metal song in the making)

-sm

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by BattleAngel
Actually, I think a lot of the rock drummers who I've met who use two kick drums do it for feel reasons and not for sonic ones. They like feeling like the snare is dead center. Many have symetrical set ups, even down to the cymbals. I know that Mike Portnoy from dream theater sets his kit up like this. I think usually the two bass drums are the same size. I'd make pretty sure to get them both sounding the same especially if it's any kind of metal.

Yuppers... the rock guys use identical kick drums 99.9% of the time... all they're doing is trying to use both feet for what one foot can't do, so no point in having different drum tones. The difference between double kick and double-pedal/single kick is all about feel. With double-pedal/single kick, the rebound isn't as natural off the batter head. Charlie Benante from Anthrax gave me a nice lesson on this once... he can't do half of what he does with his double kicks on a single kick without wearing himself out twice as fast. It's as if the double kicks work with you while double-pedal/single kick kinda works against you.

BTW, Portnoy now has 3 kick drums on his kit, two 22"'s for the double kick stuff and a 20" off to the side... he's officially lost his mind!

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by smoothmoniker
dackita dackita bam

dackita dackita bam

two kick drums and a microphone ....





(i sense a nu metal song in the making)

-sm

Good thing Limp Bizkit finished up their new album before you posted that!
Fred Durst

[heinz]

Originally posted by jpaudio
Charlie Benante from Anthrax gave me a nice lesson on this once... he can't do half of what he does with his double kicks on a single kick without wearing himself out twice as fast. It's as if the double kicks work with you while double-pedal/single kick kinda works against you.

Absolutely the rebound on an already vibrating head hit off-center is a way different feel. I can understand why two drums is the ultimate situation. I haven't noticed the 2:1 fatigue ratio but I guess it's partly what you're used to and how muscles have been trained. I've always used double pedal and learned to deal with it. Something about hauling that second huge drum around to gigs probably. And what a PITA from a mic/phase/bleed standpoint.

I've seen drummers like Chad Wackerman absolutely rip a blitzkrieg on double pedal kits.

[Jason Poulin]

The two kicks are identical and almost identical sounding.

We're not recoding metal but something more like Tool/ Perfect Circle... There will be some ups and downs in the mix. I think he's using the two kicks on the ups therefore I may just trigger it then and leave it be on the downs so capture more of a feel.

My question is though, for my FOK mic which I rely a lot to capture the bass drum = kit sound... do I put it in front of the right kick or should I keep it centered between the two. I won't be able to trigger the FOK on the kicks... it just won't dance!

Anyhow, I was just looking to see if anyone had any experience with this... I'll just end up trying different setups and listen to what works best!

Thanks guys...

Jason

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by Jason Poulin

My question is though, for my FOK mic which I rely a lot to capture the bass drum = kit sound... do I put it in front of the right kick or should I keep it centered between the two. I won't be able to trigger the FOK on the kicks... it just won't dance!

The fun I would have with a Tool/APC-type band, damn i'm jealous!

To attempt to answer your question, although i've never tried it ona double-kick kit before, i'd probably aim the FOK mic dead-center on the kit, assuming the drummer keeps his snare in the center (or between the kicks anyway). Once you get 4-5 feet away from the kit, it won't matter as much, but i'd still try to keep it even. If the drummer goes into a steady 16th-note kick pattern, you don't want every other hit to be weaker. I'd go for a strong, solid kick-snare image with the FOK mic, as equally distiributed as possible.

[Jason Poulin]

The project should be very fun and interesting!

I'm laying down the guitar tracks actually.

The drummer is using a Yamaha Maple custom set... most ideal studio drummer I've ever worked with. Very good ear and technique.

I will set up the FOK mic in between the two kicks and I'll capture the snare dead center. I should be in good phase with the two OH mics.

I'll add the TLM 103 to flavour the kick and that should be slammin! The d112 will be on the other kick which I'll be triggering when he uses it.

I'm aiming for that punchy very clean sounding kit! please God, give it to me!!! or at least will my U99 give it to me e

well, thanks again

Jason

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by Jason Poulin
I'll add the TLM 103 to flavour the kick and that should be slammin! The d112 will be on the other kick which I'll be triggering when he uses it.

This is just my personal opinion, but a TLM103 by itself wouldn't really get the kind of attack that something like a D112, Senn 602 or 421, ATM25 etc captures... i'd try using the D112 on the inside near the beater and the TLM103 on the outside just off of the front head hole. Gotta be careful of phase issues but the combo of two mics, one for attack and another for bottom/air, works great most of the time. Then just throw whatever else, extra 57 etc, on the second kick, and trigger both kick tracks with a solid sample of the main two-mic kick. Of course YMMV

[Jason Poulin]

I wanted to try that as well... the whole attack/bottom end miking is cool.

Once I combine that with the FOK I should get a powerful kick

thanks

Jason

[sonic dogg]

Back in the early 80's when EVERY drummer had two,three or more kicks(A.VanH)....we would use an identicle micing set up in each drum and then a LD consenser just off the floor at approx.4' out in fig8...sometimes the plexi shield in front with the close mics in deep at the beaters and a crown pzm on the glass in front.

Once we got a great sound out of two pzm's on the floor each directly in front of the kiks and a close mic at the beater of each.I always put up the Sennheiser MD409's for this kind of set up...sometimes a D10 in between the kiks for tub noise...

Have fun...sounds like you've got a good drummer to work it with.

There werent any samples to speak of i those days and this does sound like a very clean and accurate way to achieve what you want.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by sonic dogg
There werent any samples to speak of i those days and this does sound like a very clean and accurate way to achieve what you want.

Sure there were... you just had to make them yourself or steal a copy of someone's DAT/reel, then load them into an AMS DMX, trim the start & end times manually, gate your trigger source for maximum tightness and feed it in... oh the fun!

Thank God for SoundReplacer

[Jason Poulin]

Thanks for the support guys...

I'll have some pics and samples up soon when I finish the tracking. It will be fun and very interesting!

The best part of it, I get to track the guits with my drumers new Mesaboogie amp. That combined with a JCM2000, Fender Super Rev. (drewling)

Jason