How long until high end vintage mics become unobtainium????

[rumimusic]

Originally Posted by kraku

I have to speak my sincere mind:

I feel that the vintage mics are way over hyped. They should become myths and ancient history of which people only talk about and never lay their hands on again. Microphone technology has gone forward so much during the last 50 years. Forget U47. Welcome Gefell UM930.

At least I'm gonna buy the bugger (UM930) and laugh at people in 30 years when the mic has been long out of production and everyone is trying to buy one.

As a producer who has had U47, M49, Ku3a's, etc all at my disposal i'd have to somewhat agree . I remember one session where by the end of the mixes we couldn't discern between the U47 vocals & the $200 electro voice dynamic microphone. Sure there was a ton of processing in the mixes but i still think there's alot to be said for that. Not to mention the 47 would get a tad noisy and sometimes we'd even have to take it apart to get it working ( talk about a pressure situation!).

But all in all working with that a equipment is a pleasure ( when you can afford it and it works properly).

Deeming these artifacts a necessity is pure dogma however.

[Myles83]

I have quite a few vintage mics including a pair of ELAM 251 E's. My older mics don not require any more maintenance than my newer tube condensers.

One thing to remember with the "clones" is that AKG and Neumann have never released information regarding the building of their capsules just like KFC never reveals its top secret 11 spices. The capsule is the single most important part of the mics character (IMO) and even that isn't correctly duplicated by the cloner. So who cares if they got the paint and headbasket right?

Sometimes a newer mic wins out on the vocal, but 9 times outta 10 one of the original 251's or the M49 is simply outstanding.

If someone wants to spend 5k on a Flea, I personally would rather spend 10k on an original.

[Plush]

Some posters here in the last few posts make astounding suggestions. One poster calls for olden mics to retire to a museum. Another makes a comment about a FLEA mic, saying that if one wants to spend to buy a FLEA, why not spend twice as much to buy a olden mic. (They would cost much more than that, sincere poster.)

These are astounding statements indeed for people who rely on a great sound for their living. Oh wait---are these people making their living from the recording business? I don't know.

I could never echoe their suggestions because I own, use and seek out olden tube mics because of how they portray the source. They don't make the sound, they pick up the sound in front of them in a certain way.

I do have FLEA 49 and FLEA 47. We are fortunate on GS to have these wonderful Slovakian mics. They are offering 95% of the sound of the real thing.

So, in fact, one does not have to spend twice their cost to obtain a great sound.

Many speaking here are just offering their latest version of a Gearslutz fact.

[toneguru]

I'm in both camps.

I love my vintage mics but...

I also love my Tele-USA 251E, AEA 44c, Soundelux U95, Brauner KHE's and Bock 507's.

If you have great ears and can truly appreciate the nuances of quality gear (whether vintage or new), than get what appeals to you. Most musicians with great ears that follow their instincts rarely regret their decisions.

There have been some things that the masses in the pro recording community gravitated to that I would never want in my arsenal. So for me, the ears lead the way down the path.

There is a ton of vintage gear that is junk but the great sounding exotic stuff... well you know the story.

[toneguru]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

and 56's.
I finally broke down and got a nice pair this winter.
but probably the last vintage mic's I buy for a while.

Glad to see you finally found a pair RB.

BTW, I looked into my crystal ball and it says that the KM56's are not the last vintage mics you will be buying. The crystal ball is very reliable... and its a vintage crystal ball with the original mount :-)

PS. just for the record, I kept my pair of 56's.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Myles83

If someone wants to spend 5k on a Flea, I personally would rather spend 10k on an original.

if you can find an actual good one for 10k go for it..

unfortunately places like Vintage King are now asking for 14-15k on their VK serviced 47's.

I love and use vintage but I'd have no prob using a Flea as well.

actually you can get the Fleas for closer to 4k [without the flight case]

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by toneguru

Glad to see you finally found a pair RB.

BTW, I looked into my crystal ball and it says that the KM56's are not the last vintage mics you will be buying. The crystal ball is very reliable... and its a vintage crystal ball with the original mount :-)

PS. just for the record, I kept my pair of 56's.

Ha!
those dope looking old Russian mics Norm has been taunting me with?!
yeah my 56's were hand picked/serviced out of 6 mics to make a great stereo pair by Andreas G via the Madooma folks.

amazing.

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by Plush

I do have FLEA 49 and FLEA 47. We are fortunate on GS to have these wonderful Slovakian mics. They are offering 95% of the sound of the real thing.

So, in fact, one does not have to spend twice their cost to obtain a great sound.

Many speaking here are just offering their latest version of a Gearslutz fact.

I got my real u48 for less you paid for your Flea. It had a nuvistor, but I got a vf14 for $400. I had a flea in my studio for a while and its a great mic. One of the best! BUT. sorry... Not 95%.

This gearslutz "fact" that you speak of is BS.

I use these for a living, and I buy them and sell the for a living. And to be quite honest with you, I have probably had more 47's in my hands then you have in your life. Not 95%.

[Space Station]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

I buy them and sell the for a living

Now I understand the purpose of you starting the thread..

[Plush]

Good fortune to you Alex.

Your and my experiences are vastly different. This I can tell from your posts.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

I use these for a living, and I buy them and sell the for a living. And to be quite honest with you, I have probably had more 47's in my hands then you have in your life. Not 95%.

And Plush has made some of the best classicall recordings I've ever heard; even some of the best recordings available today - you don't get nominated for that many Grammies for nothing. His recordings of Lorraine Hunt are nothing short of some of thenworldbest EVER live recording.....His opinion ain't to be taken lightly, and perhaps with just a little respect no? ( If that's ok, not trying to be too scathing... I recognise buying a selling such items gives you a great insight into variability out there).....

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by narcoman

And Plush has made some of the best classicall recordings I've ever heard; even some of the best recordings available today - you don't get nominated for that many Grammies for nothing. His recordings of Lorraine Hunt are nothing short of some of thenworldbest EVER live recording.....His opinion ain't to be taken lightly, and perhaps with just a little respect no? ( If that's ok, not trying to be too scathing... I recognise buying a selling such items gives you a great insight into variability out there).....

That's great, I'm sure he's really good at what he does.

But this is not a conversation about what mic works for what application, nor is it a conversation about who is the best at what they do. This is a conversation about how long until it becomes next to impossible to find High end Neumann, Telefunken, Gefell, and AKG. It got transformed into a "my clone sounds as good as your real 47" thread. And what I was saying to your friend was when you put a good u47 up against a flea 47 it is NOT 95%. If he is that good, he should know this. And I'm sure he has a much better ear then I do with his grammy record etc, so he should know that its not 95% because even I can hear the significant difference.

Does this make a mic better then another?? No. Watch I'll end up putting a pair of AT3035's up in stead of u87s for over heads tomorrow.

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by Space Station

Now I understand the purpose of you starting the thread..

haha No, I posted because I started really seeing how hard it is becoming to find the stuff. I source all over the world and it seems like every 6 months it gets worse.

[toneguru]

It will be interesting to see what happens to scarcity and values when China gets fully engaged in the game. They already started on a small scale.

If the dollar and the EU fall hard in value relative to the Yaun, the gear can triple in a decade. Not banking on it but it is plausible. If gold can go up 6x in twelve years who is to say that other collectables can't go hyperbolic too.

Whichever country has the strongest currency, they will have the advantage in bidding for the gear. That is one reason why so many German mics are in the US and Japan. One of many reasons but still a primary one.

I have a few vintage mics of my own and yet there are some more that I want to add to the arsenal. So I am on the fence as to which way I would prefer the values to go.

One thing for sure, predicting the future is rarely a slam dunk.

[Alex Breaux]

That's exactly right. The US and Japan are the main demographic. Japan will actually pay about 20% more... I just sold a m49 to a client in Japan for $17,500.. It was a good one though. The only thing I would question about China is quality control, but if they nailed it so good with textiles especially, whats next.

[Alex Breaux]

I also gotta add something.. As far as the Flea stuff goes, I would use them in my studio every single day if they were 50% less. $4-$5k is just way too much for a clone. So far the only mics that I know of that really perform well at a reasonable price are the Blackspade mics.

Flea 47- $4500

Original Neumann U47 "realistic price w/ vf14" $7500

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

I also gotta add something.. As far as the Flea stuff goes, I would use them in my studio every single day if they were 50% less. $4-$5k is just way too much for a clone. So far the only mics that I know of that really perform well at a reasonable price are the Blackspade mics.

Flea 47- $4500

Original Neumann U47 "realistic price w/ vf14" $7500

If you're talking dealer prices (Flea's $4500 being a brand new dealer price), I'm pretty sure you'd have to add at the very least 3 grand on top of the $7.5k for the U47, particularly with a VF14 up to spec.

As for your client in Japan, well, think exchange rates. Yen is around 20% more expensive compared to the dollar than it was before the financial meltdown.
So it's been a free for all for the guys with money over here buying from the States.
And you're actually right, they've always paid more money, lots of times more than 20% on top of market value.
You could well have sold your mic for $20k if it was a recent sale.

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by dbjp

If you're talking dealer prices (Flea's $4500 being a brand new dealer price), I'm pretty sure you'd have to add at the very least 3 grand on top of the $7.5k for the U47, particularly with a VF14 up to spec.

As for your client in Japan, well, think exchange rates. Yen is around 20% more expensive compared to the dollar than it was before the financial meltdown.
So it's been a free for all for the guys with money over here buying from the States.
And you're actually right, they've always paid more money, lots of times more than 20% on top of market value.
You could well have sold your mic for $20k if it was a recent sale.

Through brokers etc, there are not many u47's selling for over $7500. But again, as you said, $7500 may be a bit low for Japan.

[RKrizman]

Alex are you a vintage mic dealer? That is, do you have a horse in this race?

Perhaps I missed the disclosure somewhere.

-R

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Alex are you a vintage mic dealer? That is, do you have a horse in this race?

Perhaps I missed the disclosure somewhere.

-R

Your getting upset again?? Because I'm not stating what you want to hear about your most significant investments??

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

Your getting upset again?? Because I'm not stating what you want to hear about your most significant investments??

No, in fact my mics aren't investments, they're tools. My investments are mostly mutual funds and real estate.

I don't know why you think I'm upset. Just asking a fair question, wondering if you are a dealer, which might cast your opinions in a certain light.

It's a beautiful day here. I hope you are enjoying yours.



-R

[drBill]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

It's a beautiful day here. I hope you are enjoying yours.



-R

I am Rick. The day is much more beautiful than any vintage worn out mic.

Now, a mint condition pair of C12's might give the day a run for it's money though....


And Alex - why the subterfuge? It's a fair question. I don't think you're fooling anyone.....

[jmikeperkins]

The copies and the tributes will never bring in the high dollars paid for the genuine article even if they were identical in every way. Look at the musical instrument market. Lots of companies have made copies of the Gibson Les Paul and Fender Stratocaster guitars for at least 30-40 years now, and some of the copies are incredible with better wood and better build quality, but NONE of them have a resale value 20 years on which is anything close to the original article. The same thing is true of the classic Neumann mics. People will always pay premium prices for the real deal because:

1) Real deal has familiar known sound.
2) Since real deal was used by famous artist, people will pay high price for real deal thinking that somehow they can sound like the famous artist if they own and use that mic. No matter how silly that might sound, people will always believe it's true.
3) Bragging rights on forums such as this to say you own such and such a mic.
4) Commercial studio needs the real deal to draw top dollar clients because (ignorant and close minded) clients have never heard of Flea or Wunder and won't be impressed that you own those mics regardless of how they sound or how much you paid for them. Clients will always think that you purchased the copy because you did not have enough money to buy the real deal.
5) For the most part, the vintage real deal actually does sound better than the copy.
6) With a few exceptions, the vintage mics can still be serviced. Neumann still has parts for the CMV3 mics made 90 years ago.

I can see a day when people use mics, guitars, and guitar amps that are 100+ years old.

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by drBill

I am Rick. The day is much more beautiful than any vintage worn out mic.

Now, a mint condition pair of C12's might give the day a run for it's money though....


And Alex - why the subterfuge? It's a fair question. I don't think you're fooling anyone.....

So... Let me get this straight.. You think I started this thread to bash new mics so people will buy my vintage mics??.....

LOL............

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by jmikeperkins

The copies and the tributes will never bring in the high dollars paid for the genuine article even if they were identical in every way. Look at the musical instrument market. Lots of companies have made copies of the Gibson Les Paul and Fender Stratocaster guitars for at least 30-40 years now, and some of the copies are incredible with better wood and better build quality, but NONE of them have a resale value 20 years on which is anything close to the original article. The same thing is true of the classic Neumann mics. People will always pay premium prices for the real deal because:

1) Real deal has familiar known sound.
2) Since real deal was used by famous artist, people will pay high price for real deal thinking that somehow they can sound like the famous artist if they own and use that mic. No matter how silly that might sound, people will always believe it's true.
3) Bragging rights on forums such as this to say you own such and such a mic.
4) Commercial studio needs the real deal to draw top dollar clients because (ignorant and close minded) clients have never heard of Flea or Wunder and won't be impressed that you own those mics regardless of how they sound or how much you paid for them. Clients will always think that you purchased the copy because you did not have enough money to buy the real deal.
5) For the most part, the vintage real deal actually does sound better than the copy.
6) With a few exceptions, the vintage mics can still be serviced. Neumann still has parts for the CMV3 mics made 90 years ago.

I can see a day when people use mics, guitars, and guitar amps that are 100+ years old.

Well stated! I actually had no idea Neumann still stocks parts for the cmv3's. Thats pretty cool!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

So... Let me get this straight.. You think I started this thread to bash new mics so people will buy my vintage mics??.....

LOL............

I don't think anything other than you're evading a simple question with veiled inuendo. (That's a happy facepalm bro)

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

So... Let me get this straight.. You think I started this thread to bash new mics so people will buy my vintage mics??.....

LOL............

Internet marketing 101.

Facepalm all you want. Much better to just disclose your financial interest in this and then people can draw their own conclusions. Of course there's nothing wrong with dealers posting here as long as they cop to it.

Furthermore, being a dealer doesn't disqualify your opinions. Presumably you do it because you believe in it, and might have some real expertise to share.

-R

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Alex Breaux

I got my real u48 for less you paid for your Flea. It had a nuvistor, but I got a vf14 for $400. I had a flea in my studio for a while and its a great mic. One of the best! BUT. sorry... Not 95%.



I use these for a living, and I buy them and sell the for a living.

Is that the U48 you're selling for $9,500? How great for you that you got it for less than $4,000. The fact is it's now going for $9,500 so the comparison to the Flea is specious.

Anyhow, I see that you have disclosed your interest in all this.

-R

[RKrizman]

Btw, discussions about the quality of new mics and clones has great pertinence to this thread. The better the new mics are, the less demand there will be for the vintage mics by engineers and commercial studios. Ultimately the vintage mics will be in the hands of collectors and people who already own them. Ironically it will be the people who don't actually use the mics who will be deciding their market value. Hard to say how far that will go. I would think that a microphone as a collector's artifact would have more limited appeal than more obvious and less geeky desirables like cars or guitars. I think it's possible that the price for the vintage mics is already bubbling, and the floor might well fall out as they become priced beyond the means of day to day users who then are delighted to discover that there is fantastic, reasonably priced new stuff.

I've owned a few oldies over the years and recorded with the vintage stuff in the 80's and 90's in most of the top studios in Los Angeles, and I don't think there's anything I can't accomplish with a good selection of modern microphones, clones or otherwise, that I could with the vintage stuff. And I'm pretty darn fussy. I think a lot of people are coming to the same conclusion.

-R

[Alex Breaux]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Internet marketing 101.

Facepalm all you want. Much better to just disclose your financial interest in this and then people can draw their own conclusions. Of course there's nothing wrong with dealers posting here as long as they cop to it.

Furthermore, being a dealer doesn't disqualify your opinions. Presumably you do it because you believe in it, and might have some real expertise to share.

-R

I do not know what marketing book/classes/experience you may have but its pretty left field to what I know. Actually, I must say unheard of at the least.