Opinions on summing vs. a real console?

[Greg Wells]

Every so often... the devil on my shoulder says "you could sell that Neve console, pay off your IRS tax debt AND get a summing unit."

Can anyone exorcise these evil thoughts, please?

[Slipperman]

Crash.

Oh God.

Uhmmm...

No.

Keep Neve.

No really.

Keep Neve.

SM.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Greg Wells

Every so often... the devil on my shoulder says "you could sell that Neve console, pay off your IRS tax debt AND get a summing unit."

Can anyone exorcise these evil thoughts, please?

Greg you can sell the Neve with 2 channels missing and mix in P.Tools out to those 2 channels, ha ha ha ha ha

[dokushoka]

BAH!

[Solunaris]

Depends on what Neve you have. If it's an 80 series, then you should probably keep it. If it's a VR. I'd sell it and get a Tonelux. The only thing is you won't really be making money as a Tonelux costs probably more then the VR haha.

[Greg Wells]

Forgive my ignorance - what's the deal with a Tonelux? Wot is it?

[GYang]

In LA I think that's quite easy to make 'test ride' for any equipment and convince yourself what's better. In rest of the world (well bigger part) we have to 'buy and try', eventhough, no other way will completely satisfy your dilemma.
In my smart ass humble opinion, analogue summing (maybe combination of 2 or 3 boxes) with good choice of outboards is not alternative, but more appropriate way to get 'perfect or almost perfect sound' in case that big console look is not what attract clients to you.
I heard zillion times that one can never get that real, big sound without real, big console, but I'm ultimately not convinced, so take it FWIMW

[Solunaris]

Originally Posted by Greg Wells

Forgive my ignorance - what's the deal with a Tonelux? Wot is it?

It's a modular console essentially. I'll show you the layout of the one that I have on the way. Plus you can add motorized faders and VU meters and make it a full blown console. I don't have faders, but probably will somewhere down the line just for the look if I make some dough Here's a pic of mine I have coming.

[Greg Wells]

Looks very cool.... thanks.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Greg Wells

Forgive my ignorance - what's the deal with a Tonelux? Wot is it?

Paul Wolff's new company..used to own API

http://www.tonelux.com/

[RoundBadge]

Man thats a real tough call Greg
So very sad to see fellow Gearslut Raal's fully restored 8068 parted out last month..
I'd say if you have the room and it's paid for,.keep it
Is it at your house?..clients are always blown away by seeing the old classic beasts
I haven't compared the Tonelux to a neve 80 series,but it sure reminded me of all the best aspects of the older API consoles.
I don't remotely have the room for an 80 series[Although I looked at Raal's 8068 and thought long and hard] and can't go into serious debt for a console with no automation..so the Tonelux is my best option.

[Greg Wells]

What I have is a really great sounding 5114. The predecessor to the V series. Looks like a V on top but has the same transformers as the 80 series, according to Gary Myerberg when he installed it. Joe Chiccarelli found it for me and he loves it as much as I do. Overall, not as sexy as an 8068, but pretty foxy nontheless. No automation, but I'm fine with making moves in Pro Tools.

[moogus]

Have you ever worked much 'the other way'? I know lots of people who are used to consoles and just cant mix ITB because it freaks them out too much. I grew up doing it so I dont mind, but I still prefer the sound and feel of a real console.

The other consideration is that you wont be able to buy a new mixer/summing box/whatever with the same functionality as your current mixer for less than youd get from selling it.


M

[Bassmec]

Well I had a burglery and It just took up so much room and with what it was worth all racked up in bits. It had to go.
I just started collecting real Vintage RCA Valve and things Like old British selenium
STC gear. I did not have the money for a Fairchild 670. but I have a huge retro palette of sounds. I even have an old Lancaster bomber intercom amp with a pair of HUGE Mullard PM2B dual direct heated triodes with farnell power supplys and sowter transformers, now driven hard thats what I think of as a harmonically rich pre amp, nothing else can make valve dirt that sounds like that. ME 109's 12 O'CLOCK HIGH, CABBAGE CRATES OVER THE BRINY SKIPPER. WILL CO. For extreme Metal vocals its just fantastic. Thats all us PT blokes need you know, a real wide Palette of colours. Clean and transparent we already got. Also a record head facing a playback head is a good way of getting tape FX if you have some pre amps that make +18db cleanish.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Fairfax-Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios
PS Keep a pair of 1073's though.

[davode]

sell the neve for the irs!! thats one hell of a tax debt!! i hope theres some money left over.

[Led]

FWIW I tried the summing route but recently went back to a large format console and am loving it. I think you can get good results with summing and stuff, but it's a lot easier and quicker to use a console if that's what you're used to. I'm doing things now in seconds that used to be a brain f&^k when working in the box. But the I'm an old dude (in my 30's) and I learned on a ssl so it's a lot more ingrained in me. Do you do your final mixes on your desk or do you hire a bigger studio for that? You do some pretty high end stuff from what I've read, so how important is it for you to do really close to final rough mixes? If I was a writer only i'd probably work in the box, but the engineer geek in me keeps saying "use a console use a console". I'd say get a couple of summing units and mix the same track through them and your desk and have someone else name the files x, y and z and then a/b them and see which you like best, then ask the friend which is which. I did this and picked the mix from the console as my preferred every time with a bunch of different styles of tracks. I reckon the difference was maybe 5 - 10 percent, but I could hear one, so I went and got a big console. I'm very happy with the decision. And my room is warmer which is good because it's winter here in 2 days.

Tax debt - well that's another bullet in the @ss you get when you do it as a living. I just payed mine last month and am still recovering. I don't know what home loan interest is like there, but over here it's sometimes more economical to borrow against the equity in your property to pay the debt of in one go and then offset that aginst income you have lined up from future projects. Mind you, I'm not a financial adviser, just a muso, and ya know how good we all are with money.
Good luck with the decision.
Cheers,
Led

[Gravity8058]

Keep the Neve. It'll help you make the money to pay the IRS faster.

[Led]

And don't worry - having those kind of thoughts don't make you a bad person, lots of people have them. It's just the ones that act on them.......

[woodworm]

Sell the Neve if you can a decent price for it and save on your airco and electricity bills. You'll probably also save on maintenance costs. 51 series may not be in high demand, so you might be disappointed with its market price. You'll find-out how much Joe Chiccarelli loves by asking him how much he'd buy it for.

And then you can always buy newer gear if the finances work-out - AWS900, Tonelux, Summing Boxes, whatever...

[Greg Wells]

Joe is actively trying to find a console like mine for himself. There was one from Hong Kong a couple of months ago on eBay but it wasn't in the greatest shape.

I'm in love with this crazy little console and feel like I've been cheating by even discussing letting it go. I'm sorry, 5114, darling!

[TonyBelmont]

If you love it, keep it... doesn't it provide a tax deduction for you?

[ajfarber]

Get one of these. Screw the summing box. Behold the image below. The sluttyest mixing desk ever made. 24 all tube channels with Pultec type EQs, and 24 class A solid state channels. Crank up the a/c!

But all seriousness aside, it is faster for us "old guys" to grab a knob or throw a switch than to screw around with a mouse, but a console has more noise than a summin box. Most summing boxes are passive with only 2 channels of amplification for make up gain. Check out the ROLL MUSIC summing box.

[u b k]

long after the irs debt is gone --- and it WILL be gone one day --- you'll be missing that console. assuming you can pay the irs debt some other way, don't worry about it. paying debt is like doing chores, it's often just a fact of life to be dealt with as needed, and no more. worrying about the chore before it's time to do it, and grumbling about the existence of chores when you're not actually doing them, is a pointless waste of your now.

i guess the bottom line to me is that you're unlikely to regret keeping it it, but you'll likely regret selling it. also, i predict a substantial upswing in the value of vintage desks in about 2-3 years.


gregoire
del ubik

[username]

Having the Big N word associated with your studio increases your clientele somewhat I'd imagine.. even if it isn't their most well known console

[Led]

I agree with Ubik about an upwards swing in consoles in a few years.

[doug_hti]

just get EMI to pony up a bigger advance...your slammin the hits out....
or borrow against ascap/bmi pipeline projections....low interest rates that way...and cheaper than tax penalties....

[Greg Wells]

To clarify... the shoulder devil telling me to sell my little 5114 is more suggesting that things may actually (where's the air sickness bag?) sound better with a great summing box than going through this console... and as an added perk, be able to throw upwards of $20k at the government.

My inquisitiveness is primarily about audio quality and ease of working... tempted by the ease of recalling mixes with a summing unit... the financial thing isn't leading the charge on this issue.

I've been using computers for almost 20 years doing music, so the mouse doesn't scare me. HOWEVER, try as I might to successfully mix ITB, it never comes close to firing it all up through my console. Apples and oranges.

I appreciate everyone's input here. I'll hang onto the 5114 for lots of good reasons!

[doug_hti]

Originally Posted by Greg Wells

HOWEVER, try as I might to successfully mix ITB, it never comes close to firing it all up through my console. Apples and oranges.

In your opinion do you think this is primarily because of the "process or workflow" of being able to grab knobs and faders right at thought, or a "sound/sonic" thing and going through more electronics?....or simply a combination?

[Greg Wells]

I'm much faster with the mouse - easier to open plugins than it is to patch gear and (God forbid) get out of my Aeron chair.

For me, there's no denying that it just sounds better - a lot better - going through all the analog gear and excessive cabling, overheated transformers, etc. I also love the fact that, despite Digi's "delay compensation" for ITB stuff, plugging in an effect or compressor across the console won't cause any noticable timing issues because everything traveling through a console is moving infintely faster than going through an A/D/A process and the delay compensation works well, but not perfectly. Hope I'm still making sense... at least I know what I mean. It's late!

There's a fat bottom end... a weight...a groovy coloration of the sound... that my 5114 gives to a mix, and there's no way I could ever get that on the virtual PT console, regardless of summing units and external analog gear.

[rguaguanco]

I hear you Greg. Glad to know there's another producer on the boards hustling to find out wether they should switch to a summing box for ITB mixing! I'd imagine the answer depends upon your time constraints and applications. If you're used to mixing most of your own productions, and if that allows you to keep more control over your finished product and/or save more of your advance on lower budget projects, then maybe you should keep the Neve. If you farm out the majority of your mixes and usually use the Neve to make your demos sound amazing, then maybe a summing mixer can save you valuable time while still providing you with beefed up demo mixes?

TOTALLY with you on the digidesign delay compensation, it's been annoying the hell out me recently!


chris rojas
zomba/bmg
rmistudios.com