Using a compressor in the mixbus

[mherrane]

Hi all.

I'm currently mixing an album for my band Rust. The album will be mastered by a proper mastering engineer and now I can't decide how "final" I want my mixes to be before mastering. So far I've thought not to use any comps, limiters or EQs in the mixbus because the masteringhouse anyway has better toys. I read some posts on the mastering forum and to me it seems there are two different opinions, some would put nothing to the mixbus and work these things out with the mastering engineer, the others say you really benefit from using mixbus compressor while mixing.

I see many threads about mixbus compressors here, that's why I wanted to ask, how many of you mix towards a compressor and how many leave the final compression for the mastering engineer?

Of course this is a matter of equipment. I don't have any proper outboard comps currently, would I benefit from getting one or should I just leave these things for the mastering guy and buy something else ? Are there any "real" highend 2-bus softwarecompressors in VST format?

I suppose this is also a musicstyle question so let's concentrate on pop / rock mixes where the sound has to be loud and aggressive.

I really appreciate all the help I can get.

-- Mikko

[Slogun]

I'd say that if you're out to strap something to the 2-bus to colour your sound, give it your identity, then go ahead. But don't forget to leave enough headroom/dynamics left to the ME.
If it's for as you put it 'pop / rock mixes where the sound has to be loud and aggressive' I'd say leave it to someone who has the better tools and the experience.

[dokushoka]

Mixing into a compressor gives you a lot more control over the dynamics of your mix. The trick is to strap the comp on very early, rather than near the end of the mix. Unless you have some seriously aggressive settings, there will still be some dynamics left for the ME to play with.

[mherrane]

Thanks for the replies...

I've been using a UA Precision Limiter in the mixbus while mixing. I suppose that's somehow similar. I've then taken the P.Lim away before bouncing the final mixes to disk...

One more question. what kind of settings (what kind of compression) do you use in your mixbus compressors?

Again thanks for all the info. I really find this all very helpful.

-- Mikko

[GearHunter]

If you don't have any outboard hardware comps yet, I'd say that's a priority purchase anyway. Get something stereo/dual-mono so you can use it for mix as well as tracking.

When you do try mix-buss eq, be careful not to do too much...just maybe get it to tap on the loudest stuff, like kick and snare, as well as using it to add some color. Leave room for the mastering guy. Do nt give him files that look like two solid black bars.

The Drawmer 1968 or Portico 5043 come to mind immediately as being versatile enough to both track and mix with. They sound good and are not too hard on the old wallet!

[Jason Poulin]

I would think that if you're asking how and why to use mixbuss comp, then probably you should avoid it for this project. (if it's important enough not to screw it up... but if you trust your yourself at this point, go for it)

You should owe it to yourself to take the time an experiment with it first and not just because it's the thing that everyone does. But it does work great when mixing into it (how I work usually)


You can leave it to the M.E. and make sure you are there while he's doing it... tell him what you're going for. If he's got a Vari-Mu then... ya know?


If you decide to use it anyway, I suggest (this is a cool way to do it) mixing through it like buddy said. Insert the mixbuss comp right away at low ratio and set the TH to about reading 2-3-4max of gain reduction.


I wouldn't insert a limiter on your mixbuss... Leave it to the ME.


I'm sure you will do ok if you take the time to try it all out.




Good luck on your project.


Jason

[pingu]

The sonalksis or the waves ssl
or even rencomp on the mix bus seem to be a few favs.


I think most agree that mixing in the box requires a little grit on the 2 buss.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by pingu

The sonalksis or the waves ssl
or even rencomp on the mix bus seem to be a few favs.
I think most agree that mixing in the box requires a little grit on the 2 buss.

It helps- I strap McDSP AC1 on straight away and add either Ren Comp or COmpressor bank along the way also.
The trick is quite high threshold and low ratios- dont crush it.

JR

[mherrane]

I always use Sony Inflator on the mixbus...Also been using the P.Lim while mixing... I'm asking all of this mostly because I've started to think that I'm doing too much (not too less) before mastering. I've only mastered once with a proper mastering guy and talked with him about these things...I used Inflator and P.Lim on that project also and the guy told me that I didn't do too much to ruin his work in any way (P.Lim reducing max 3dB of gain). Anyway, he suggested me not to use any limiters on the mixbus (and yes that's also what everybody here keep saying)...Anyway. I like the sound of my mixes much better when there is a limiter on the mixbus...that's why I'd like to experiment with mixbus comp things...To give the mix something extra while not using a limiter .

Today I tried the URS comps on the mixbus and so far am very satisfied with the results. I've been thinking of getting myself the Portico comp (and maybe the tape emu too), I'll definitely try them on the mixbus as soon as I get them.

-- Mikko (Starting to feel like a real gearslut ;D).

[Trebor Flow]

Buy MILAR by Charles Dye, adapt what he says to your music.
My Dye is very clever and totally understands mixing ITB.

No matter what you voices you hear here (Jason tie yourself to the mast) you can use a software compressor on a major release, and you DON'T have to use harware if you don't want to or budgets don't allow.

I use Sony Inflator in the mix bus and mix into it, but only use the FX in a subtle way. Leave limiting for the mastering stage.

Good luck with your mixes

Trebor

[Jason Poulin]

Originally Posted by Trebor Flow

No matter what you voices you hear here (Jason tie yourself to the mast) you can use a software compressor on a major release, and you DON'T have to use harware if you don't want to or budgets don't allow.


Trebor

I actually like some software compressors... I almost use them just as much as the outboard stuff.

Honestly and I do have a nice list of hardware comps.

I used Rencomp on the 2buss for while and it was cool.

There are some extremely exeptional plugin compressors that work.





Jason

[pvoc3000]

fyi there was a San Diego band from the 90s called Rust that released at least one album on a major, Atlantic I believe.

[username]

I often setup a sort of pseudo mastering chain as sort of a guide as to what the mix will sound like after it's been compressor and limited..

It's quite helpfull in little things.. like "when this gets limited.. we're gonna loose alot of vocals..

that sort of thing.. but obviously I have it off when I do my final mix downs

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by mherrane

I always use Sony Inflator on the mixbus............

Just be aware that the Inflator is NOT a compressor... it is basically a distortion generator.

for real!

just FYI

[LaLaFaV]

Originally Posted by pvoc3000

fyi there was a San Diego band from the 90s called Rust that released at least one album on a major, Atlantic I believe.

I was going to mention this myself. It was my friend John's band. They had an E.P. and then a full length, produced & mixed by Dave Jerden. I'd watch out for copyright enfringement if you plan on trying to use the name Rust. It's probably best to change your name now instead of after you've spent money on artwork and duplication on your album. Just a heads up to you...

[robot gigante]

Well, whatever you do, don't put a limiter on the mix bus.

As far as compression goes-

Although a lot of people here seem to do it, I almost think you'd have to be on crack to put Rencomp on the mix bus.

Begs the question, why is it that you want to compress the 2-bus anyway, is it because there are so many threads here that talk about it or... have you tried it and like it compared to an uncompressed mix at equal volume... or do you think you just have to..?

That said, I do like a bit of compression on the mix bus but unfortunately that's the worst thing that software compressors will do. So be very careful, and a/b things as best you can if all you have is plugins.

The most you'll probably want to do is a 1-2 db at most in the ballpark of a a slow attack, fast release.

Inflator is a whole different effect btw, not a compressor.

[mherrane]

Hi again.

I know what Inflator does...I was speaking of plugins in mixbus in general...Sorry if I wasn't accurate enough.

I don't want to use mixbus comp because I see others do it...I want to do it because I like very much what the UA Prec. limiter in a mixbus does to my mixes and want to achieve something similar...Now after two days of testing I've got a feeling that compressing the mixbus really helps me get where I want to go (mixingwise). I don't want to ruin things by smashing everything with a limiter but I want my mixes to be...somehow more complete, more glued together...This is IMO something I have to do myself, not just leave for the mastering engineer.

Oh and the name Rust...We've already released one album...there are also other cases where different bands use the same name. I suppose this is a problem only in the U.S. (the promised land for law issues (don't mean to insult anyone here)...Anyway that really is enough to make it a problem since the U.S. really is the place for the kind of music we do :( ...Have to think about it, thanks for the info.


-- Mikko

[feyshay]

I don't think a high quality transparent software compressor would make a big difference. If you're going to use one, add PSP MasterComp to the list to try out. I liked it better than the Sonalksis stuff (which is the other I would consider). It won't add any color, but I wouldn't use plug-ins to add color. Might be best to leave it as is if it sounds good. Leave it to the ME.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by mherrane

Hi all.

I'm currently mixing an album for my band Rust. The album will be mastered by a proper mastering engineer and now I can't decide how "final" I want my mixes to be before mastering.

My advice----stop thinking "final". Think "the sound" instead. If your mixes already sound good without the bus compressor, don't use it. If the bus compressor helps give you the sound you are looking for (or glue the mix together in a way that you are missing) then use it. Otherwise, don't. The word "final" implies some kind of arbitrary level goal that you should not be concentrating on... concentrate on how good you can make the mix sound.

If you do not leave room for the mastering engineer to help present the songs in context, one with another, then you are also defeating yourself.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

Mixing into a compressor gives you a lot more control over the dynamics of your mix. The trick is to strap the comp on very early, rather than near the end of the mix. Unless you have some seriously aggressive settings, there will still be some dynamics left for the ME to play with.

I disagree. If you strap the comp on early, then you may be tempted to use the compressor to "mix" your record instead of your well-worn fingers. I suggest putting any mix bus compressor on after you have worked your ass off to get the best mix possible. Then you won't be stuck in the rut of the compressor affecting the transients and beauty of the music. Plus, with the overall compressor always patched in, you'll never know what you are missing... you'll always be hearing your sound through that limiting context. There is so much to the dynamics of the music that helps to give it the impact.

This all goes back to my feeling that you should start by mixing the climax of the song. With a bus compressor patched in from the first moment, you may never know how impacting that climax can feel nor be able to objectively switch it in and out to see if the climax is impacting the way it should.

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I disagree. If you strap the comp on early, then you may be tempted to use the compressor to "mix" your record instead of your well-worn fingers. I suggest putting any mix bus compressor on after you have worked your ass off to get the best mix possible. Then you won't be stuck in the rut of the compressor affecting the transients and beauty of the music. Plus, with the overall compressor always patched in, you'll never know what you are missing... you'll always be hearing your sound through that limiting context. There is so much to the dynamics of the music that helps to give it the impact.

This all goes back to my feeling that you should start by mixing the climax of the song. With a bus compressor patched in from the first moment, you may never know how impacting that climax can feel nor be able to objectively switch it in and out to see if the climax is impacting the way it should.

I do something similar. I don't start with the buss comp on at the very beginning. And before I say more I should stress that using compression musically is one of my strengths after over twenty years as an engineer, and I have used mix-buss compression on every mix I've done since about 1986. So, for me, it's a creative tool to get the impact and "glue" that I need. Even still, every once-in-a-while I overdo it. SO: If you're a novice, don't try this at home!

Anyhoo, I get my basix up first: drums, bass, guitars. When they are big and rockin' with plenty of punch and crunch, I THEN insert the master comp. After I like what I'm hearing through it, I continue the mix, adding the vocals, etc.
The choice of compressor is based on the song, it's tempo, it's velocity, and what I want the overall effect to be. Typically I like "smacky" hard-knee VCA comps ala SSL, Alan Smart, API 2500, dbx 162SL, etc. But I have used Neve 33609 and 2254/2264 and other fets, like the Crane Song STC-8. Sometimes what works is a Vari-Mu with its rounder knee. I own and especially like the Drawmer 1968 for this type of work. I recently tried the Pendulum ES-8, which is incredible, as is the Thermionic Phoenix. They're mucho bucks, but well well worth it!

What results from the proper use of buss compression is typically a bigger-sounding mix than NOT using the comp.

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by bob katz

I disagree. If you strap the comp on early, then you may be tempted to use the compressor to "mix" your record instead of your well-worn fingers. I suggest putting any mix bus compressor on after you have worked your ass off to get the best mix possible. Then you won't be stuck in the rut of the compressor affecting the transients and beauty of the music. Plus, with the overall compressor always patched in, you'll never know what you are missing... you'll always be hearing your sound through that limiting context. There is so much to the dynamics of the music that helps to give it the impact.

This all goes back to my feeling that you should start by mixing the climax of the song. With a bus compressor patched in from the first moment, you may never know how impacting that climax can feel nor be able to objectively switch it in and out to see if the climax is impacting the way it should.

Yes I agree with what you are saying whole heartedly. I think, though, for certain genres, the sound of the compressor across the mix IS part of the sound. The way see it, if you're going to dance with the devil, you may as well do the tango.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by bob katz

This all goes back to my feeling that you should start by mixing the climax of the song. With a bus compressor patched in from the first moment, you may never know how impacting that climax can feel nor be able to objectively switch it in and out to see if the climax is impacting the way it should.

my compressor came with a 'threshold' knob for just this reason . i am constantly turning that thing as the mix evolves, and hitting bypass to see what's going on with the transients.

i'm not sure i follow you about the 'danger' of letting the comp do the mix. no comp i've ever met will mix for me, despite my most ardent pleadings. it might gel an incoherent slop into a slightly more coherent one, but a compressor will never produce a magical mix simply by slapping it on.

but if it did, what exactly would the problem be with that? the end is all that matters, no?

there are things i can accomplish by pushing elements into a mix that simply cannot be done without a compressor pushing back. zealously riding an orchestral swell in the last chorus gently squeezes the rest of the music back but the energy stays coherent while growing more urgent. without the comp, i just get louder strings. there's a unifying force at work, where elements dance and sway in ways that they do not do if they're not being corraled by a wondrous knee.


gregoire
del ubik

[phelbin]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

I do something similar. I don't start with the buss comp on at the very beginning. And before I say more I should stress that using compression musically is one of my strengths after over twenty years as an engineer, and I have used mix-buss compression on every mix I've done since about 1986. So, for me, it's a creative tool to get the impact and "glue" that I need. Even still, every once-in-a-while I overdo it. SO: If you're a novice, don't try this at home!

I do almost the exact same thing. I'll have a song 90% mixed before I even turn it on. And it really does add that finishing touch. I'll tweak a few things after it's on, then I'll start comparing on different sets of speakers and headphones...and I'm almost done.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by u b i k

my compressor came with a 'threshold' knob for just this reason . i am constantly turning that thing as the mix evolves, and hitting bypass to see what's going on with the transients.

i'm not sure i follow you about the 'danger' of letting the comp do the mix. no comp i've ever met will mix for me, despite my most ardent pleadings.

Then you're probably just fine. But you have not heard some of the overcompressed mixes that I've been getting from guys mixing with the mouse who forgot to move the faders.

Sure, the end is all that counts, but the "ears have it"... switching that compressor in and out to see what it's doing is very important in my book.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dokushoka

Yes I agree with what you are saying whole heartedly. I think, though, for certain genres, the sound of the compressor across the mix IS part of the sound. The way see it, if you're going to dance with the devil, you may as well do the tango.

Yes! If you're seeking "that sound", and that's your style of mixing, go for it. But I am reminded of seeing some of Picasso's life drawings from 1906. He was a master of form and color and realism. So when he got to cubism he had already mastered the naturalistic technique, and cubism was not just "scratches on a canvas" by someone who was not a master of the plastic. He was also a master of surrealism to rival Dali.

I feel if you do not know what live music sounds like, nor practice creating a live-sounding mix once in a while, then you will never know when or if you are overusing the tools or losing an important color or attribute (like IMPACT).

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Yes! If you're seeking "that sound", and that's your style of mixing, go for it. But I am reminded of seeing some of Picasso's life drawings from 1906. He was a master of form and color and realism. So when he got to cubism he had already mastered the naturalistic technique, and cubism was not just "scratches on a canvas" by someone who was not a master of the plastic. He was also a master of surrealism to rival Dali.

I feel if you do not know what live music sounds like, nor practice creating a live-sounding mix once in a while, then you will never know when or if you are overusing the tools or losing an important color or attribute (like IMPACT).

Wow Bob, you just articulated something that has been bothering me for years. I first took a recording class in 1979, and from that point spent years learning and perfecting the art of recording.

Starting in the 90's there was a trend called "LoFi", which was a stripped-down, no production style of recording and mixing. A lot of people around here were in to it. It was like, no EQ, minimal micing, no effects, etc.

Well this trend gave the PERFECT excuse to no-eared novices who were doing crappy recordings. "Oh, we're doing LoFi," or "It's a minimalist thing." Yeah right! You couldn't get a good drum-sound at gunpoint.

Like Picasso, who became accomplished at a classical style before morphing it, one has to be a good engineer at HiFi before being able to do LoFi. You have to know one to understand the other.

Am I right? Who agrees?

[s_sibs]

I just finished a project where I used an Avalon 747 on the mixbus going to a Masterlink at 24bit/44.1k. I set it so the needle barely moved with a 2:1 ratio with the Tube Path engaged. It really sounded great and seemed to "glue" (for lack of a better word) the mix together. I also inserted a UAD Pultec on the stereo bus in Nuendo and set it flat. Seemed to sound better with the Pultec...I don't know why...upsampling?

Just my .02

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by mherrane

Hi all.

I'm currently mixing an album for my band Rust. The album will be mastered by a proper mastering engineer and now I can't decide how "final" I want my mixes to be before mastering. So far I've thought not to use any comps, limiters or EQs in the mixbus because the masteringhouse anyway has better toys. I read some posts on the mastering forum and to me it seems there are two different opinions, some would put nothing to the mixbus and work these things out with the mastering engineer, the others say you really benefit from using mixbus compressor while mixing.

I see many threads about mixbus compressors here, that's why I wanted to ask, how many of you mix towards a compressor and how many leave the final compression for the mastering engineer?

Of course this is a matter of equipment. I don't have any proper outboard comps currently, would I benefit from getting one or should I just leave these things for the mastering guy and buy something else ? Are there any "real" highend 2-bus softwarecompressors in VST format?

I suppose this is also a musicstyle question so let's concentrate on pop / rock mixes where the sound has to be loud and aggressive.

I really appreciate all the help I can get.

-- Mikko

Make your mistakes and learn from it .

This is something you have to experiment with. I have gone to a phase like this myself.
Now, I try to get the sound as close to what I want (allthough I never use a limiter on the 2-bus) and use a compressor for glue and to get the balances right within the compressed picture of the final mix.
Same with 2-bus eq: if you think the mix sounds better when you apply a little, why wait with it? Because the master engineer has a higher quality piece of gear?

Good luck,
Dirk

[picksail]

I prefer to mix into the compressor, because it is part of the desired sound.

As the mix develops, I tend to back off the threshold.