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Summing my sums? A more "highend" summing question.
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Providence
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#1
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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Summing my sums? A more "highend" summing question.

Ok forgive me if I posted this in the wrong place but I figured this is a high end question.

I believe in summing and I like what it does for my mixes. Recently after mixing on some API and MCI consoles something struck me that I have never thought of before. When I mix my drums to a buss, guitars to a buss, and anything to a buss, it's getting summed right? Then those busses are getting summed through the master buss out right? So am I right in assuming that there is a stage of bussing happening before the master buss? If this is the case, what does this do sonically (if anything)?

I know this might seem a little overboard but I have a passive summing mixer I built myself. I love the sound of it when mixing and was wondering if it would be beneficial to build one or two more for "sub summing" if you will? Thanks
#2
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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fredouli is offline
This is kinda what I do at the moment.
I do majority of mix tasks in tools, surgical cuts etc. then sum out through a Cadac desk in groups.. Drums, bass, guitars etc. using the desk EQ as group EQs and pushing channels, drums etc. when I want some of that.
Then often push the 2mix of the desk pretty hard, it never really breaks up just kinda pulls things together.. and take that back in to tools.
I presume this is pretty common practice?
Providence
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#3
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredouli View Post
This is kinda what I do at the moment.
I do majority of mix tasks in tools, surgical cuts etc. then sum out through a Cadac desk in groups.. Drums, bass, guitars etc. using the desk EQ as group EQs and pushing channels, drums etc. when I want some of that.
Then often push the 2mix of the desk pretty hard, it never really breaks up just kinda pulls things together.. and take that back in to tools.
I presume this is pretty common practice?
Your basically talking about summing stems right? This is what I do also but I was wondering if summing groups (like drums) in the analog world before I sum my "stems" has any sonic benefits?
#4
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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voidar is online now
Analog is never a 1:1 scenario as digital is.
Question is, do you like it more.

Depending on what is doing the summing or what you strap on the master, a sense of glue will be impacted.
Providence
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#5
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voidar View Post
Analog is never a 1:1 scenario as digital is.
Question is, do you like it more.

Depending on what is doing the summing or what you strap on the master, a sense of glue will be impacted.
I completely agree. I'm just trying to figure out if there will be any noticeable difference in summing a group before I sum the total. I have a little while before I can build the rest of my summing mixers and I just wanted to see what you guys have found out or do.
#6
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Providence View Post
I figured this is a high end question.

I believe in summing and I like what it does for my mixes.

assuming that there is a stage of bussing happening before the master buss? If this is the case, what does this do sonically (if anything)?
it's more a
Geekslutz forum - Gearslutz.com
question...

believe is nice, but it not necesary when there is good ears.

yes, there is summing whitin the summing...

old consoles have summing in groups of 8~16, to the 2mix bus, in hope to keep crosstalk lower & also lower noise floor.

summing is done "passive", and the more channels summed, need more compensation gain at the output, too much gain sometimes gives more noise if not designed properly.

is beleived that mixing 8+8+8+8=2 is better than 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=2

there was a test somewhere in GS, with a Summing box, 16 digital channels, mixed in pairs to 8ch analog, vs. 16ch. Analog.
with Apoge da16x

it all depends on the summing box desing.
a bad 8+8=2 is not the same as a good
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=2

Folcom, is pretty transparent.

in the case of a Mackie 16.8 buss console...
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=
2+2+2+2=
2

but i dont know if the 1+1 stage has more groups, like some vintage consoles.
schematics can tell.

a test could be done with 3x folcrom...
mixing 16channels with 1x folcrom or 1x dangerous 2 bus lt
vs.
mixing with 2x folcrom or 2x dangerous, @ 8channels each, and those 2+2 mixed with another folcrom or dangerous = 2.
all 3x must be same brand/model.
in theory 3x should be even more... Good or Bad

if summing is designed to be transparent, more summing should give more transparency.
if summing is designed to be X colored, more summing should give more X color.
and if summing was designed to be noisy, more summing should give more noise.

very interesting to do with 7x good summing boxes @ 4ch each.
---
some consoles like MCI JH-600, have different circuit design in the control room vs. the 2-track tape Out.
"what you hear it's Not Recorded to the 2-track Tape Machine."
Providence
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#7
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
it's more a
Geekslutz forum - Gearslutz.com
question...

believe is nice, but it not necesary when there is good ears.

yes, there is summing whitin the summing...

old consoles have summing in groups of 8~16, to the 2mix bus, in hope to keep crosstalk lower & also lower noise floor.

summing is done passive, and the more channels summed, need more compensation gain at the output, too much gain sometimes gives more noise if not designed properly.

is beleived that mixing 8+8+8+8=2 is better than 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=2

there was a test somewhere in GS, with a Summing box, 16 digital channels, mixed in pairs to 8ch analog, vs. 16ch. Analog.
with Apoge da16x

it all depends on the summing desing.
a bad 8+8=2 is not the same as a good
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=2

Folcom, is pretty transparent.

in the case of a Mackie 16.8 buss console...
1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=
2+2+2+2=
2

but i dont know if the 1+1 stage has more groups, like some vintage consoles.
schematics could tell.
Ok cool. Very informative. I think this is mainly going to apply to my drum buss more then anything. I like to drive my drum buss in the red sometimes just to get a little edge and glue. I have been thinking about this recently a lot. I have been back and forth on getting a console and just realized that I don't really need to. I have tons of outboard channelstrips, eqs, comps, ect.... The only thing I really like and miss is the flexibility of busses. I have 8 Neve 1272 modules that I was going to sell. I'm thinking now that I might build a master section of a console. 8 channel D-subs running into buss faders that then buss into the master out. I might be biting off more then I can chew. I'm going to do some more research though. Thanks again
#8
1st March 2012
Old 1st March 2012
  #8
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mu6gr8 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Providence View Post
Ok cool. Very informative. I think this is mainly going to apply to my drum buss more then anything. I like to drive my drum buss in the red sometimes just to get a little edge and glue. I have been thinking about this recently a lot. I have been back and forth on getting a console and just realized that I don't really need to. I have tons of outboard channelstrips, eqs, comps, ect.... The only thing I really like and miss is the flexibility of busses....
FWIW one of my producer racks has 3 x Dangerous 2-Bus units and a Chandler Mini Rack Mixer, and the setup works & sounds great. Along the lines of your thoughts, I use the D2Bs as busses/submixes to the Chandler mixer. In my experience, summing multi-tracked drums in the analog domain, before analog summing of your submixes, is a worthy endeavor.
Providence
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#9
1st March 2012
Old 1st March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mu6gr8 View Post
FWIW one of my producer racks has 3 x Dangerous 2-Bus units and a Chandler Mini Rack Mixer, and the setup works & sounds great. Along the lines of your thoughts, I use the D2Bs as busses/submixes to the Chandler mixer. In my experience, summing multi-tracked drums in the analog domain, before analog summing of your submixes, is a worthy endeavor.
Thanks. I have been asking and checking. I even did a little test last night and really liked the results. I think I'm even going to build a summing mixer with two stereo outputs (for parallel processing). I am thinking of the best elegant solution to this. I believe in intuitive mixing and that means workflow with your tools. Thanks for all the help guys! I would still like to hear what other are doing!
#10
1st March 2012
Old 1st March 2012
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Matt Syson is offline
Hi
If you keep going you will 're-invent the wheel', mixing architecture that was established in the 1970's.
There is a significant amount of 'disinformation' in this thread. The Folcrum and similarly assembled 'passive' devices will all be as 'transparent' as it is possible IN THEMSELVES but the amplifier that follows it will add any 'flavouring'. They do not have to be the same type of amplifier but you should not change the setup once you have esatablished it as any phase / level changes will alter the combined mix.
Matt S
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#11
1st March 2012
Old 1st March 2012
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erikdrink is offline
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