Proposition for Paul Wolff, Tonelux: 16x4 Aux sends in 1U Rack

[jindrich]

Hey everybody,
I'm starting to get the Tonelux concept, a first class sounding system that can grow up to a full blown desk (like Messinas') including Moving Faders.

There's though just one thing IMO that precludes the system from building such a great desk: lack of aux sends.

There are only 4 aux sends per MX2 input module (internally configurable pre/post in pairs), which, if you're going to use the desk as a true analog board, are not enough. There's "hope" though: you can use ONE FX2 module as additional aux sends for EACH MX2, getting the feed from the direct out. But even then, you'd only get 2 additional stereo aux sends, and the whole thing is really expensive (for this use): adding those mentioned 2 st sends per module on a 16ch MX2 would cost $7,800!! (read: 16 FX2 modules plus rack), besides taking 3U space and use very needed internal buses.

I just thought, heck, i could simply add a $1,200 16ch mackie or A&H rack mixer, just to add additional aux sends (fed from the Tonelux's direct outs). But that would be some kind of "heresy", oder?


Why not this instead:

Build a completely INDEPENDENT 1U rack Aux Send expansion, like this one. Let's call it the "16x4_AUX_Rack":




This "16x4_AUX_Rack" has 2 sets of concentrical knobs like those int the MX2, adding 4 aux sends per channel for 16 MX2 modules (you dont need to have 16 MX2 though). This 1U rack would be fed from the Elco direct outs of the Tonelux rack. This 1U unit is simply a distribution box at line level... plus 4 summig amps for the 4 master sends (without knobs, or maybe in the rear, as there's no space left on the front).

SO in a pinch, Rear panel:
-2 elco connectors for the 16 inputs (fed from Tonelux Rack's Direct outs).
-2 Elco connectors as pass-trough (so you don't loose those Direct Outs).
-4 TRS jacks or XLRs as the 4 Master aux sends.
-A/C plug (internal PSU).

Very simple. Very elegant.

This should be *relatively simple* to build (hey, it's only a SPLITTER with knobs!) and cost much less than $7,800. Say ... $2,000 (because it includes 4 summing amps and a PSU).

Take a look:






Say you set the four MX2 auxes internally as PRE fader. With the "16x4_AUX_Rack" you get another 4 POST auxes.
In 4U you'd get 16 great sounding input modules each with 4 pre(or post) plus 4 post auxes, 8 in TOTAL.
Add a master section and start building your full blown desk.

(just like this one, with 8 st returns and 16 moving faders!!!!!!!)







Paul i hope you like the idea, i've been thinking about this (how to easily expand aux sends) for about a week.

[jindrich]

Flick is having trouble with the images, so i'll upload one here on the boards, just in case.

[midnightsun]

If this would work I would be interested.

[ToneLux]

Very interesting. Now this is called THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. This would answer a lot of questions. The only down side would be less than 16 modules or a half rack, since I would probably have to do it differently that I do now, but you got me thinking...

[jindrich]

hey Paul,

I'm glad you like the idea. I've been playing with it for a while, as the lack of auxes was the only thing i was missing from your truly cleverly designed modules.

Why do you say less modules or half a rack? That would complicate things too much, and wouldn't leave enough space on the rear for the connectors and inside for the 4 summing amps.

And btw, how much would such a piece sell for? just an estimation.

What do you think about having the level pots for the 4 summig amps on the rear? as there's no space left on the front, and to avoid making it 2U, knobs on the rear was the only i could think of. They are POST sends anyway, which normally feed reverbs and fxs, so levels don't have to be set that often (maybe just once) as if they were PRE sends, which can control cue sends (making therefore master send levels very required)

greetings from sunny Mallorca

[Faderjockey]

Paul, I have been thinking about this type of unit for a while...I even built a mini version for my mixing with Folcrom. Depending on what type of connectors you use...Owners of other summing units (Folcrom, D2b, N16 etc) would be able to have sends...So it would open the door to more sales for even guys that already have a summing unit.

[not_so_new]

Maybe I want everything for nothing...



... but I would hope it would come in less than $2000.... I can dream right?

Oh and great idea jindrich!

[petemin]

hey paul,

pete min here. hope all's well. i'd be very intested in the above idea as well. thanks, pete

[ToneLux]

Let me chew on this, I am bathing in AES Paris readyness crap right now, but I need to look at this.

[Mike O]

I can only assume the more interest shown, the more likely something like this might happen. Count me as very interested. As always the more flexible the better. Nothing on the back please.

This is the kind of thing that makes the TX approach so interesting. Try buying a conventional format console and then adding something like this.

Have a good show!

[GYang]

Nice and useful idea.
Actually I look on Tonelux carefully as many here and some critical mass of advantages for making decision has to be reached.
Such small module with additional auxes at reasonable price (2 k is correct price point) would be very nice indeed.

[RoundBadge]

Count me inthumbsup

[Solunaris]

Damn, that'd be the GOLDMINE. I hope you make it Paul. I'm in either way or not, but that'd put a fat smile on my face

[jindrich]

I'm glad some of you are liking the idea.

There are still a few things that I didnt think properly:

1) I initally considered only 16 ch as that was what i wanted for myself, but didnt think that someone might build a bigger mixer.

2) The second thing is related to the first, and concerns as well the location of the 4 Master aux sends, a real headache.


Ok, to solve all of this:

1) back banel should include one more pair of the multipin connectors to link the 4 aux sends between multiple units, so a 32, 48... etc mixer could share the same auxes (or not, up to the user). So link in, and link out. (sending/receiving 4 mono balanced signals each)

2) To gain access to the 4 Master aux SENDS without making the unit bigger than 1U or buiding different modules, simply make the 2 last vertical knobs -those corresponding to what would be channel 16-, to be DISCONNECTED from the inputs via an internal SWITCH and control instead the level of the 4 Master auxes.
It's not very elegant because on one side you lose the auxes for ch16, and on the other those level sends would be visually *lost* in the mixer, but, hey, it works! (make them another color maybe?)

Besides, this solution can turn my proposed "16x4_AUX_Rack" into a stand alone DUAL stereo (or QUAD mono) 15ch summig mixer as well!

to recoup:

Rear panel:
-2 DB25 connectors for the 16 inputs (fed from Tonelux Rack's Direct outs).
-2 DB25 connectors as pass-trough (so you don't loose those Direct Outs).
-4 XLRs for the 4 Master aux sends.
-2 DB25 for the 4 Master aux send LINK between units
-A/C plug (internal PSU).

Btw, I'm sure you already thought that you could patch as many "16x4_AUX_Rack" into a Tonelux system, to get as many POST aux sends per channel as you want.

Last thing. The "16x4_AUX_Rack" name is too complicated. I'm going to rename it as,

the "Mallorca_Box"





I should be starting to get paid for this.
quiquesurfer@yahoo.es

[blaugruen7]

please can anybody explain me why you need 16 aux sends?

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by blaugruen7

please can anybody explain me why you need 16 aux sends?

I don't think thats the intention...

It is to expand the current 4 aux sends per channel to 8 aux sends per channel... I've got 8 on my Soundtracs console... 1 stereo and 6 mono aux's...

[blaugruen7]

sorry, i feel like a blended squirrel.
what do you do with these 8 or 16 aux sends per channel?
4 stereo reverb units and 4 stereo compressors?
i am in the woods...

[jindrich]

hey everybody again,

I'm starting to have doubts whether the $2,000 price point of my "Mallorca_Box" is attainable at all.
What's the difference between summig the signals of 16 aux sends versus summig 16 channels of audio?

I don't know much about electronics, (hey I studied economics) but I'm afraid if the answer to the above question is "none", then the "Mallorca-Box" can't be build to be sold for $2,000 because it's actually the equivalent of say, two Nicerizer16, which sells for around $3,000 each.

...unless you dont need an input amplifier (op-amp?) for every input in the case of the "Mallorca_box", because they are aux sends, signals that have already been amplified by the line amps somewhere in the input chain. You just need 4 summig amps for the 4 Master sends, right?.
But if you're getting the signals from the Tonelux's Direct Outs, do you or do not need an input amplifier per input? Please some clever AE light me here up.


Also, if you intend to use the "Mallorca-Box" as an independent audio summer (after all it takes 16chs to 4 outputs), -just to make the box more versatile you know-
do the circuits need to be more complicated? can't that be just like a Folcrom with a tranformer balanced summig amp?

Also, as the "Mallorca_box" is taking a line level signal and splitting it to 5 sources (the pass-thru plus the four aux sends), can be that passively accomplished? doesn't it need to be a transformer isolated split? (thus making it more expensive?)

Please help me out.



blaugruen7,
you dont need aux sends for compressors, they are inserted interumpting the audio path, and not sent as an FX like a reverb. You're a ITB guy, aren't you?

I *designed* the "Mallorca-Box" as a way to expand the aux sends of the Tonelux system. Also, the sends in The Tonelux are only internally selectable pre/post. So with 2 "Mallorca_boxes" you could easily have 4 pre (for cues) and 8 post sends (for reverbs and FXs) if you want, without having to take the modules out of the chassis.

Und wie ist das Wetter in Berlin denn? Gruß

[Mike O]

I suspect you are correct about the price. But if there was a way to reduce the space needed to add additional sends while staying somewhat in line w/other TX prices I would still be interested.

Now, if you can come up with a way to reduce the footprint for the buss assign modules and maybe multiplex them......

Lot's of cool places this can go over time.

[ToneLux]

If I make it to work only as an expander for the TX MX series, it could be very inexpensive. If I make it with balanced in's then probably not so.

I'm leaning as an expander. The module and motherboard are already set up for that kind of interface.

[Seti808]

Great Idea!!!!!!!!!!

This is one of the things that is stalling my purchase of a tonelux console.

If there is going to be an option for more Auxes in the future I'm just about sold!

This is a dream console

4 Auxes is not enough!

16 is overkill for many people but I could use them to create some very custom
headphone mixes with 2 furman Hds-16's and a bunch of remotes!

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by Seti808

Great Idea!!!!!!!!!!

This is one of the things that is stalling my purchase of a tonelux console.

If there is going to be an option for more Auxes in the future I'm just about sold!

This is a dream console

4 Auxes is not enough!

16 is overkill for many people but I could use them to create some very custom
headphone mixes with 2 furman Hds-16's and a bunch of remotes!

Keep in mind that you still have all the sends available, pre and post, in the DAW. If you are usinf tape or a Radar, then you would do better with more auxes.

The auxes in the TX work best for reverbs and parallel compression stuff because of no latency. If you are feeding delays, the internal DAW sends are perfect.

If you can come out of the DAW digitally into your effects device, then you only have it's delay when converting to analog. (always some delay, but less)

[ToneLux]

and...

You can come out of the center dsub on the rear of the Vrack, it has all 16 channels unbalanced out so you could run that into another mixer for headphones.

[jindrich]

Paul,
what do you think about my last idea, disconnecting the last column of knobs from the input nr16 (via an internal switch) and make them control the 4 Master sends? i think it's brilliant

also, what would "very inexpensive" mean? dont you need to use 4 TX-260 and 4 TX-280 transformers for the 4 master aux sends?


btw, if my idea is going to bring you those many new sales (i've heard the "not enough auxes a lot" when directly talking to people), i want a comission! Or maybe a Tonelux rack

One more thing...i'm not done yet. Still working on some other ideas for ya. Stay tuned

[ToneLux]

Originally Posted by jindrich

Paul,
what do you think about my last idea, disconnecting the last column of knobs from the input nr16 (via an internal switch) and make them control the 4 Master sends? i think it's brilliant

also, what would "very inexpensive" mean? dont you need to use 4 TX-260 and 4 TX-280 transformers for the 4 master aux sends?


btw, if my idea is going to bring you those many new sales (i've heard the "not enough auxes a lot" when directly talking to people), i want a comission! Or maybe a Tonelux rack

One more thing...i'm not done yet. Still working on some other ideas for ya. Stay tuned

don't get greedy...

The summing will be with the standard FX2+ or such. that's all for now, you will have to wait until after AES Paris.

See you all when I get back.

[krid]

With all this talk about Tonelux we should do a Tonelux "Special Gearslutz" Group Buy

[ToneLux]

We call those "distributors"...

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by ToneLux

We call those "distributors"...

Use whatever "code word" you like for the group buy, I'm in!

[Solunaris]

It's only fair, you gotta pay $50K like the rest of us fuuck

[jindrich]

so Paul,
is this, my late proposal, the definitive one for the soon forthcoming MAX-1 (Mallorca Aux eXpander)






did you said something about it in Paris?