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#61
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Pedantry is the last refuge of the witless, FYI.
That's brilliant, matey! May I use that?
#62
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Sort of like trying to push down ping pong balls into water with your thumb.
Like Following your posts?

They keep flying to the surface!!!
#63
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
That's brilliant, matey! May I use that?
Of course - but it's not mine, I stole it from somewhere else! But if you google it, it's just this post that comes up.....!
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#64
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Don't be disingenuous. The OP was clearly referring to the tube U47.

-R
Not so clear. Read again. He says U47 in the thread title and post.

Never mind. I don't want to sound pendantical and witless at the same time.
#65
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Not so clear. Read again. He says U47 in the thread title and post.

Never mind. I don't want to sound pedantic (spell fix) and witless at the same time.
Jim, a man of your knowledge and expertise could never sound either pedantic or witless... let alone both at the same time!
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#66
27th February 2012
Old 27th February 2012
  #66
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414EBs

Just sayin' got mine for $500/each. Yes, I've seen them go for near $2000. It's always taking a chance. Mine didn't pass the fog test and went to the shop for cleaning/repairs.
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#67
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianellefson View Post
I'll be the weirdo bad guy here and just say ... I don't care what sounds close to a U47. I just wanna use mics that really capture the source I'm recording. If it ends up being an SM57 then so be it. No offense or anything like that.
not weird or bad, but completely pointless and off topic. Looking for a U47 sound is a pretty good idea imho. Certainly a more likely pasttime than "Can I find a mic that sounds as close as possible to an sm57?". U47s are old, expensive, and hard to come by. SM57s are affordable, easy to find, and not as sought after.

Anyway - I'm interested in seeing how quickly the copy mikes deviate from the true-ish U47 type of sound as prices decrease. Like some of these more affordable mics are noted as sounding good and vaguely in the right family but certainly "nothing like a U47" and so on.

And I'm also interested in the wunder mic - it sounds really promising for a pricier purchase.
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#68
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley View Post
And I'm also interested in the wunder mic - it sounds really promising for a pricier purchase.
+1 on this. I've been wundering about that mic a LOT!
#69
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #69
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I'm happy as can be with my Peluso 2247.
#70
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #70
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I have over 200 mics, including an original Telefunken 47 from Dave Smiths (R.I.P.) vintage collection but if you are looking for great sounding "cheap" mics some that i would suggest are the JZ v47 and v67. Also the AT 4047.
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#71
8th March 2012
Old 8th March 2012
  #71
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Octavamod k47h
#72
18th March 2012
Old 18th March 2012
  #72
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Interesting things said by Dirk Brauner about U47:
(from: Brauner VM1: Consequence of an Experience)


What made you decide to build a microphone?
"I was using that U47 microphone all the time, and I loved it. I wanted another one, so that I could have a matched pair. That’s when I found out what a good quality U47 costs!I didn’t want to spend the money on another U47, and started to think that the U47 could be improved. I wanted a mic with a lower noise floor than a U47. And a variable pattern control, so that I could fine-tune the frequency response of the mic. A dream came to me that I would build the mic I wanted.

I started looking into the mics that I loved. The M49 has a variable pattern control, but I didn’t like the proximity effect, or the transient response. I thought the U47 sounded better, but it didn’t have the variable pattern control, or the noise floor. I wanted a mic that wasn’t linear, but didn’t sound EQ’ed. I wanted a mic that was fast and had could handle transients like a small-diaphragm, but it needed to be smooth and warm like a large-diaphragm. I wanted to have a variable pattern control so that I could sit in the control room and fine-tune the response of the mic. So I decided to build my own mic. I started out with an M7 capsule like the one in my U47. I called Neumann and ordered an M7 replacement capsule. It didn’t sound like my U47 at all. You see the M7 has a PVC diaphragm, and what happens to the old capsules is that the capsule gets old and rigid, and that introduces harmonic distortion and a slight compression effect.

It softens the peaks.

Right, it compresses because it can’t move like it’s supposed to, and that also adds this harmonic distortion. Sometimes it sounds good, like my U47. Sometimes it sounds bad. But the new capsule didn’t have that sound at all. I didn’t like it.

There were other problems with trying to get the sound I wanted to hear. All kinds of things happen to tube gear when it ages. The capacitors dry out and lose their capacitance. The resistors wear, and the resistance increases. This can be beautiful. Or bad."




It explain well why all originals U47 are selling for lots of $
Just like old wines, some things can't be replicated
Or someone will sell capsules with some high tech aging process?
#73
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
  #73
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At the risk of sounding witless, I just got a new 6 um k-47 capsule from Microphone parts. It is different sounding next to their 3 um k-47 capsules. The top end is damped above 10k hz, the low end is bigger, the low mids more smooth and powerful. It still retains the 3~5k hz rise. It also has much improved rear axis rejection, the 3 um versions are almost omni in comparison.

Both have their places.
#74
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIDBILL View Post
It explain well why all originals U47 are selling for lots of $
Just like old wines, some things can't be replicated
Or someone will sell capsules with some high tech aging process?
I'm not sure I buy the idea that it's the aged degeneration of the vintage mics that makes them sound good.

-R
#75
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
I'm not sure I buy the idea that it's the aged degeneration of the vintage mics that makes them sound good.

-R
Agreed, that wouldn't explain why they sounded so good in the 50's and 60's, which you can still hear in recordings from back then.
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#76
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
  #76
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Of course some old wines turn to vinegar over time... just like some old mics are complete shite. It depends on the unit, it depends how the unit couples with the source, it depends on a lot of things besides age and what's inside.

At some point it seems that wine gets so old and so expensive that nobody opens the bottles anymore... they just buy and sell them. Make no mistake, that crap is starting to happen to a lot of the "classic" mics of yesteryear too.

Peace
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#77
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIDBILL View Post
Interesting things said by Dirk Brauner about U47:
(from: Brauner VM1: Consequence of an Experience)


What made you decide to build a microphone?
"I was using that U47 microphone all the time, and I loved it. I wanted another one, so that I could have a matched pair. That’s when I found out what a good quality U47 costs!I didn’t want to spend the money on another U47, and started to think that the U47 could be improved. I wanted a mic with a lower noise floor than a U47. And a variable pattern control, so that I could fine-tune the frequency response of the mic. A dream came to me that I would build the mic I wanted.

I started looking into the mics that I loved. The M49 has a variable pattern control, but I didn’t like the proximity effect, or the transient response. I thought the U47 sounded better, but it didn’t have the variable pattern control, or the noise floor. I wanted a mic that wasn’t linear, but didn’t sound EQ’ed. I wanted a mic that was fast and had could handle transients like a small-diaphragm, but it needed to be smooth and warm like a large-diaphragm. I wanted to have a variable pattern control so that I could sit in the control room and fine-tune the response of the mic. So I decided to build my own mic. I started out with an M7 capsule like the one in my U47. I called Neumann and ordered an M7 replacement capsule. It didn’t sound like my U47 at all. You see the M7 has a PVC diaphragm, and what happens to the old capsules is that the capsule gets old and rigid, and that introduces harmonic distortion and a slight compression effect.

It softens the peaks.

Right, it compresses because it can’t move like it’s supposed to, and that also adds this harmonic distortion. Sometimes it sounds good, like my U47. Sometimes it sounds bad. But the new capsule didn’t have that sound at all. I didn’t like it.

There were other problems with trying to get the sound I wanted to hear. All kinds of things happen to tube gear when it ages. The capacitors dry out and lose their capacitance. The resistors wear, and the resistance increases. This can be beautiful. Or bad."




It explain well why all originals U47 are selling for lots of $
Just like old wines, some things can't be replicated
Or someone will sell capsules with some high tech aging process?
That (the story told in the original article following the link, paragraph "the man behind...") sounds like a fairytale or a hollywood blockbuster story.
He didn't know what a U47 is, yet, at the time he got it as a present, he was designing their studio.. Right.
#78
19th March 2012
Old 19th March 2012
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
At the risk of sounding witless, I just got a new 6 um k-47 capsule from Microphone parts. It is different sounding next to their 3 um k-47 capsules. The top end is damped above 10k hz, the low end is bigger, the low mids more smooth and powerful. It still retains the 3~5k hz rise. It also has much improved rear axis rejection, the 3 um versions are almost omni in comparison.

Both have their places.
Yep, and that "RK7" has a 32 mm diameter.
Very clever.
Drop in fit for the countless Chinese mics with the infamous, stock 32 mmm K67 knock-off.
And Rode mics with the funny capsule holders.
NT-1 anyone?
You know, the one with the circuit design made by that witless guy. ;-)
I'd like to hear it with an RK7 (and grill job.)
No, not quite a (tube) U-47.



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#79
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
At the risk of sounding witless, I just got a new 6 um k-47 capsule from Microphone parts. It is different sounding next to their 3 um k-47 capsules. The top end is damped above 10k hz, the low end is bigger, the low mids more smooth and powerful. It still retains the 3~5k hz rise. It also has much improved rear axis rejection, the 3 um versions are almost omni in comparison.
...that 32mm brass K47 capsule has been my choice for some time (I've been getting them direct from China)...I am currently testing one in a Stellar CM-6 at Dave Thomas' recommendation (he developed that capsule with the Chinese manufacturer), replacing the stock 35mm K67 capsule with nice results...I prefer this 6-micron mylar version...but I give microphoneparts.com props for making all these affordable capsule options so accessible...
Attached Thumbnails
Not quite a U47 but...-k47capsule.jpg   Not quite a U47 but...-cm6wk47capsule2.jpg  
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#80
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
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Quote:
I prefer this 6-micron mylar version...but I give microphoneparts.com props for making all these affordable capsule options so accessible...
I don't understand the "but".




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#81
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
I don't understand the "but".
...I like big buts and I cannot lie...
#82
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
  #82
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Yeah, I saw that one comin'.

But...........................
Never mind.



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#83
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
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OK then, I'll try again.
Is the RK7 membrane not Mylar?




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#84
20th March 2012
Old 20th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
OK then, I'll try again.
Is the RK7 membrane not Mylar?
...yes, the capsule both I and Jim Williams were referring to is what microphoneparts.com calls it's "RK7" capsule...Dave Thomas of Advanced Audio has been offering that capsule for some time now (Dave's Advanced Audio C12, K67 and K47 capsules are all 6-micron)...the RK7 originates from a different manufacturer in China than the 34mm RK-47 and RK-12 that were the initial offerings of that website...as Jim commented, I too thought that 32mm capsule had a smoother, fuller low/low-mid response than the larger 34mm capsule with the 3-micron mylar...from what I can see, it appears microphoneparts.com is now offering capsules originating from 3 different manufacturers in China, with 3, 5 and 6-micron mylar diaphragms...and the quality of these inexpensive capsule options continues to improve...
#85
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #85
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Yes it does.
Microphoneparts just sent me a raincheck coupon for another 47 capsule. I love my modded sp1 with the 47 capsule and some upgraded caps. I gave it a basketmod too. It's no u47 but it certainly sounds on par with my hm7u and I love that mic.
Props to Jim, who dropped some tips on the mod circuits.
#86
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #86
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+1 John Kennedy has a great voice, but IMHO a slight bit of de-ssing would improve that track. FWIW some vocal mics (M88 for example) equal more sssubstantial ssibilance on me vs. this track

Was recently surprised that a music buddy of mine has a real U47 in excellent condition/working order. So might (we'll see) be able to try it out when he returns from the UK, in a few weeks.

Chris

P.S. If this happens WILL be shooting out the U47 against a "vintage" SM57!
#87
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
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Quote:
...yes, the capsule both I and Jim Williams were referring to is what microphoneparts.com calls it's "RK7" capsule...
Right, that's what I thought and that's exactly why I didn't/don't understand the "but", as I don't see any opposites:
Quote:
I prefer this 6-micron mylar version...but I give microphoneparts.com props for making all these affordable capsule options so accessible...
But before I make this more important than it really is, I'll leave it.
The other bits, about the different sources MP gets their capsules from, and the difference with Dave's package, are clear.
And again, thanks for sharing this kind of info in the first place. Much appreciated!

Quote:
the quality of these inexpensive capsule options continues to improve...
That's the good news, of course, although the prices are rising, too. (Very recently, they crossed the $100.- point.) So for instance this quote:
"RK-12. (not)$139 (but)$109
Introductory sale pricing!"
...is not exactly what it suggests. That is, it was never $139 (hence "introductory" and, yes, it could be $139 soon) but the $109 price used to be lower.
Still, nothing to complain about, although those interested may not want to wait too long.
On the other hand, a sudden run on those would raise the chance there'll be another price increase sooner.



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#88
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #88
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You spend $110 on a china capsule or $400 on a A+ top of the line capsule.

Is this really a question?

Shit I just sold two original m7's for $400 each in the sealed case.

How about $10 for the china capsule?

Oh they deteriorate over time so they have "that sound". Uhhh... They were also built better, by hand, and by somebody who cared.
#89
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
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Quote:
You spend $110 on a china capsule or $400 on a A+ top of the line capsule.

Is this really a question?

Shit I just sold two original m7's for $400 each in the sealed case.

How about $10 for the china capsule?

Oh they deteriorate over time so they have "that sound". Uhhh... They were also built better, by hand, and by somebody who cared.
Much too black and white IMO.
But here's where I think we agree:
Yes, the capsule is the heart of the microphone.
Yes, high-end microphones "deserve" a $400.- capsule.
Yes, this is the high-end section.

But a $400.- capsule in an upgraded lower end mic? Not.
Also, don't underestimate the capsules we're talking about here. They're precision machined items with good quality control and materials (and good sounding too, although that's subjective and it's hard to convince those who have already made up their minds), that were tested and plotted in an anechoic room. Several people (as in human beings) involved there, too, and I refuse to believe they all don't care.
These capsules are not quite like the infamous, multi-mass-produced 32 mm K67 knock-offs (that are combined with the wrong circuits to boot.)
In fact they're an answer to them.
And yes, the gap with the "real" thing is closing.



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#90
21st March 2012
Old 21st March 2012
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Also, don't underestimate the capsules we're talking about here. They're precision machined items with good quality control and materials (and good sounding too, although that's subjective and it's hard to convince those who have already made up their minds), that were tested and plotted in an anechoic room. Several people (as in human beings) involved there, too, and I refuse to believe they all don't care.
These capsules are not quite like the infamous, multi-mass-produced 32 mm K67 knock-offs (that are combined with the wrong circuits to boot.)
In fact they're an answer to them.
And yes, the gap with the "real" thing is closing.
...as I understand it, one of the critical points in the improvement of the quality of these Chinese capsules was John Peluso's inclusion of former Neumann engineer/physicist Verner Ruvalds in the designing of metalwork for Peluso's line of capsules being manufactured over there...Ruvalds provided the specifics for the tooling of these capsules and other AEs like Dave Thomas have requested custom tooling based on classic capsule designs, sending examples of vintage tooling for duplication...while the Chinese capsules may not be accurate clones of the classics, some may be surprised how many of the $1000-2000 mics that get praised here in the High-End forum utilize capsules originating from these very same Chinese manufacturers...

...more on Ruvalds here:
Couple's Custom Microphones Carry Colorful Past : NPR
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