OH Placement

BackHand · 5th May 2006, 09:47 AM

I have this returning problem with my miking technique of a traditional Rock drumset in my studio.
I want a big roomy sound, especially for the snare so it sounds big pop/rock in style and not so small and dry and in trying to achieve this I always mix my två A/B OH mics way to loud so the cymbals almost pop out of the speakers.

Here is an example of a recording I did recently:

http://www.studio24.nu/ljud/Only_One.mp3

How should I place my OH mics to get away from the cymbals too loud problem?

Should I try to lower the cymbals and also put the mics a little bit behind the kit pointing down at the snare and toms or a little in front of the kit pointing of axis of the cymbals at the snare ?

Any tips? Or should I use two ribbon mics like the Sontronics SIGMA who doesn't have a lot of top end to get the voulme of the cymbals away?

Help

?

seaneldon · 5th May 2006, 10:07 AM

is the drummer maybe hitting the cymbals too hard in relation to the drums? physically raise the cymbals up from the drums as high as possible without the drummer being uncomfortable. that would help overall cymbal volume more than most mic placements would. other than that, it helps to think about placing the mics in a manner that gets more of the DRUMS, and not so much the cymbals.

BackHand · 5th May 2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

is the drummer maybe hitting the cymbals too hard in relation to the drums? physically raise the cymbals up from the drums as high as possible without the drummer being uncomfortable. that would help overall cymbal volume more than most mic placements would. other than that, it helps to think about placing the mics in a manner that gets more of the DRUMS, and not so much the cymbals.

Should I raise the cymbals towards the OH mics? That should make the cymbals louder?

seaneldon · 5th May 2006, 10:16 AM

it makes it more difficult for the drummer to smash the shit out of the cymbals. raise your mics, too, if you feel it's necessary, but it's more from the actual playing perspective.

BackHand · 5th May 2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

it makes it more difficult for the drummer to smash the shit out of the cymbals. raise your mics, too, if you feel it's necessary, but it's more from the actual playing perspective.

Hmm.....I'll try that then...any other stuff?

Jason Poulin · 5th May 2006, 09:07 PM

Really, the cymbals thing is mostly going to be the drummer that will control it.

A drummer can make an overhead in XY sound like a completely mixed drum sound. with the exeption of the kick drum.

I think you should try either XY or spaced pair technique but make sure you can spare a mic to capture a mono or stereo room signal.

Good heavy compression on that mic is always great sounding... especially with a slow release to really ehance that live feel to it. This is were a Distressor on Nuke ratio will kick some ass!!!

As for cymbals... ribbon overheads will help... treated drum room will help alot, 703 broadband absorbtion on walls and ceiling.

Gated room mic is cool too....

If you want big, you have to think big... a nice drum plate rev can enhance this too.

Good luck

Jason

u b k · 6th May 2006, 11:22 PM

if you want a big room sound, you would do well to dedicate a mic to capturing the room itself. maybe point the mic away from the kit. a little bit of that mic, compressed and blended with overs, should give you what you're after.

also, this is yet another golden application for the transient designer.

gregoire
del ubik

AdamJay · 7th May 2006, 02:20 AM

you may also want to look into using the recorderman technique (aka modified spaced pair).

This will center and bring forward the snare, and also allow your drummer to beat the hell out of the cymbals and not ruin the OH sound.

kungfugeek · 7th May 2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJay

you may also want to look into using the recorderman technique (aka modified spaced pair).

This will center and bring forward the snare, and also allow your drummer to beat the hell out of the cymbals and not ruin the OH sound.

I agree, I use this, or XY IN FRONT of the kit if i am getting too much cymbols.

Bishbashbosh · 7th May 2006, 05:10 PM

Cymbals send sound waves predominantly upwards (if they are hung horizontally).... if you want to capture more kit and less cymbals, you can have the 'oveheads' just in front of the kit, but at cymbal height.
This way you'll get more kit than cymbal.
The Recorderman technique is also great for pushing out the sound of the kick and snare in relation to the rest off the kit.

The suggestion to raise the height of the cymbals is a new one on me. To be honest I'm not convinced by the theory that it makes drummers play them less hard..... but it will make the drummer play less in time.....
A crash cymbal hit at 80% maximum will create sound at much the same dB level as one hit at 70% or at 90%.... they really do have a pretty small dynamic range until you get significantly quieter.

Most complaints about drummers being too 'cymbal heavy' are much more to do with the weakness of their kick and snare in relation to their cymbals.....rather than the actual volume they are playing their cymbals.

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5th May 2006, 09:47 AM	#1
BackHand Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 78	OH Placement I have this returning problem with my miking technique of a traditional Rock drumset in my studio. I want a big roomy sound, especially for the snare so it sounds big pop/rock in style and not so small and dry and in trying to achieve this I always mix my två A/B OH mics way to loud so the cymbals almost pop out of the speakers. Here is an example of a recording I did recently: http://www.studio24.nu/ljud/Only_One.mp3 How should I place my OH mics to get away from the cymbals too loud problem? Should I try to lower the cymbals and also put the mics a little bit behind the kit pointing down at the snare and toms or a little in front of the kit pointing of axis of the cymbals at the snare ? Any tips? Or should I use two ribbon mics like the Sontronics SIGMA who doesn't have a lot of top end to get the voulme of the cymbals away? Help ?

5th May 2006, 09:07 PM	#6
Jason Poulin Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sudbury, On. Canada Posts: 1,686	Really, the cymbals thing is mostly going to be the drummer that will control it. A drummer can make an overhead in XY sound like a completely mixed drum sound. with the exeption of the kick drum. I think you should try either XY or spaced pair technique but make sure you can spare a mic to capture a mono or stereo room signal. Good heavy compression on that mic is always great sounding... especially with a slow release to really ehance that live feel to it. This is were a Distressor on Nuke ratio will kick some ass!!! As for cymbals... ribbon overheads will help... treated drum room will help alot, 703 broadband absorbtion on walls and ceiling. Gated room mic is cool too.... If you want big, you have to think big... a nice drum plate rev can enhance this too. Good luck Jason __________________ most important gear I own are my ears! visit my band www.apparatusmusic.com www.myspace.com/apparatusnumetal

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5th May 2006, 10:07 AM	#2
seaneldon Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Foxboro, MA Posts: 2,094	is the drummer maybe hitting the cymbals too hard in relation to the drums? physically raise the cymbals up from the drums as high as possible without the drummer being uncomfortable. that would help overall cymbal volume more than most mic placements would. other than that, it helps to think about placing the mics in a manner that gets more of the DRUMS, and not so much the cymbals.

5th May 2006, 10:16 AM	#4
seaneldon Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Foxboro, MA Posts: 2,094	it makes it more difficult for the drummer to smash the shit out of the cymbals. raise your mics, too, if you feel it's necessary, but it's more from the actual playing perspective.

6th May 2006, 11:22 PM	#7
u b k Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: m a n h a t t a n Posts: 5,574	if you want a big room sound, you would do well to dedicate a mic to capturing the room itself. maybe point the mic away from the kit. a little bit of that mic, compressed and blended with overs, should give you what you're after. also, this is yet another golden application for the transient designer. gregoire del ubik

7th May 2006, 02:20 AM	#8
AdamJay Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,368	you may also want to look into using the recorderman technique (aka modified spaced pair). This will center and bring forward the snare, and also allow your drummer to beat the hell out of the cymbals and not ruin the OH sound.

7th May 2006, 05:10 PM	#10
Bishbashbosh Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London Posts: 551	Cymbals send sound waves predominantly upwards (if they are hung horizontally).... if you want to capture more kit and less cymbals, you can have the 'oveheads' just in front of the kit, but at cymbal height. This way you'll get more kit than cymbal. The Recorderman technique is also great for pushing out the sound of the kick and snare in relation to the rest off the kit. The suggestion to raise the height of the cymbals is a new one on me. To be honest I'm not convinced by the theory that it makes drummers play them less hard..... but it will make the drummer play less in time..... A crash cymbal hit at 80% maximum will create sound at much the same dB level as one hit at 70% or at 90%.... they really do have a pretty small dynamic range until you get significantly quieter. Most complaints about drummers being too 'cymbal heavy' are much more to do with the weakness of their kick and snare in relation to their cymbals.....rather than the actual volume they are playing their cymbals.