Simple Highend Tracking setup

[BillEl]

Thought I'd repost my question in case it got lost in all the info. (167 views and no replies?)

So my question, a side from looking for some general advice on the gear, is with this setup do you see any flaws in capturing studio quality sound?

[natpub]

It's fine. But, this is an oft asked question, and you're gonna get the following oft given responses:

1. "...before you get all that...bla, bla bla, microphones, monitors, and room acoustics are more important and need to take priority, bla bla bla..."

Which is true, more or less.

Get your room up to spec--read the forum and threads about it here, cuz you could spend a big chunk of that money on that. Unless you are recording everything direct, then if the room sounds like crap, you will just be making very expensive recordings of crap. Also, when you go to mix, you wont be able to make good mixes because the space sounds like crap, so you will just be responding to that, and the mixes will come out reflexive to that. And don't just think you can hear if the room sounds ok or not. Get a couple of those little software dittys and spec the room out as best you can. There are companies that will just help you do it all if you wanna splurg and are lazy. Otherwise, get reading!

2. Monitors - a good, solid pair of real pro monitors, even if they are not crazy expensive. Something you will come to know the ins and outs and quirks of how they translate. You don't have to break the bank, but they need to be real, not toys. Again, there are a zillion threads here on your choices, set your budget, do your due diligence research, and pick your poison.

3. Mics -If I had to start over, I would probably spend a huge chunk on one or two killer mics. Again, they don't have to be original ELA-M 251's, but they should be professional, serious, and a decent variety - one main vox mic, maybe a tube LDC or fet like a Black Spade or a Telefunken AR-51 or some such. Then a matched pair of good SDC, a big dynamic like an SM7 or RE-20, a few SM57's, a couple Senn 421's, and a nice ribbon like an AEA R84. That would be a start.

4. Why both a GR and a Neve preamp, just one of them would be fine. Then add the API gives you two solid flavors, plenty fine. Also, you might get a nice dedicated DI like a REDDI or something.

5. The Lynx or Mytek are both fine selections.

On all the above, "fine" means very good, meaning you don't need to worry if it is your gear that is the problem. After that, if things sound bad, you can look elsewhere.

Peace

Kurtis

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

I like your thoughts to start out big.

But I do have a couple of thoughts.

Have you considered picking up a decent all in one interface like a Babyface, FF800, or one of the competing products from other manufacturers? Get you making decent recordings quickly without the steep learning curve of an entire new rig, and you can add high quality pieces to the base systems incrementally.

You will probably want at least 4 outputs... LR monitor and LR headphone for tracking/aux out for those times when you need to mix to someone elses device.

Anyone can give you a laundry list of gear. There are a lot of good choices. Not much to be gained there unless you start to look at details. I mentioned two RME products because from my experience RME is superior in support, and build their products for the long haul. They update their driver frequently and include a cool set of tools and features with their products. But all of this relates to my experiences as a PC user. Would Mac users feel the same? You'd have to ask them. maybe there is a better choice for the Mac.

Likewise, some of us prefer PCIe over USB or firewire.

Patching?

As was said above, the monitoring chain is critical, including room treatment.

To get more sensible and useful replies, and end goal for the setup would be helpful. Do you plan to build the next Ocean Way, or do you want this to remain a quality personal recording rig with an upper limit of ?? channels? The starting point and planing could be different depending upon your goals.

But consider starting with a one-box solution. Great way to get rolling quickly, and some people find that they never need to go beyond it. End up with a nice monitor rig, a few nice mics and maybe a 'golden' pre, and call it a day.

[BillEl]

I had considered the RME Babyface but wasn't too sure on the quality of the converters or pres for that matter.

I had added the 3rd pre (Neve) in case I need to record 3 mics at once.

As for mics I do have 2 SM57s and a Senn421, I was thinking of adding a ribbon either a Royer 121 or a Beyer M160.

As 90% of the recording will be guitar and bass I've heard close micing is a good option if the room isn't very good, what are your thoughts on that? I've never recorded in a bad room so have no experience with if that is true or not.

I could stand to upgrade my monitors, right now I have some Yorkville YSM2Ps that are 5 years old.

As far as an end goal, there are only possibilities at this point. Definitely need good gear for tracking and getting quality sound, might not ever be recording a variety of bands but what I do record needs to be quality so it can be used as a studio quality final product.

Thanks for the replies so far!

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by BillEl

I had considered the RME Babyface but wasn't too sure on the quality of the converters or pres for that matter...

I'm not a fan of your monitors at all. You might also go to realtraps dot com or ethanwiner dot com and read up on room treatment. A lot of good free info there.

Here's the deal with anything like the Babyface... these kinds of solutions tend to have about the same features, but you have to check each for the specifics. Going by memory: With the Babyface you get a built in AES 2 channel input and 4 channel output, I think handling up to 192k. But you also have ADAT I/O to handle another 8 channels, so you could add some high end conversion later on if you need it. I can't comment on the mic pre, never used it, but the RME stuff is generally considered okay. (Certainly not Neve.) If you decide later that they are not good enough, add 8 channels of high end conversion and mic pres. In the meantime you've got a good start and an interface that you already understand and can use, no new learning curve. Their mixer applet and built in tools are pretty cool, those I do use. The Babyface also has built in effects and MIDI I/O.

In mics I think that it is handy to have a couple of small diaphragm condensers and a large diaphragm condenser. I own four ribbons myself, so I am a fan. Depends upon how many mics you want to own.

[Kelly Cameron]

You need tracking compression to with those nice preamps. Get 2 Daking FET II's and you"ll be smilin.

[Baz]

Not to beat a dead horse, but room treatment is going to make your life a lot easier. Forget just the mic'g aspect but for mixing and simply listening.

For less than the price of a decent dynamic mic you can make your own panels. I made (10) 2" 2x4 panels for my room for basically just over $200. Prior to doing this, my little room at home was literally unuseable.

RME is perfectly fine, and in fact, they might be doing a better job with USB than anyone else at this point (why aren't you using your MBP's F/W btw?) Nothing wrong with RME's ADDA (especially for the guy at home) and it's well known that their drivers are about as good as they get, as well as TotalMix. The pre's are the same Ti PGA2500's found in a Prism Orpheus from what I recall, so for what they are, they're quite good

I also agree that the GR and 1073LB might be somewhat redundant. If you're looking for a 3rd "flavour" I'd consider a Daking 500 or Forssell SMP500.

[BillEl]

Looks like I'll take another look at the room setup, and browse through the Studio building / acoustics forum. Room, room, room thanks for making the point, in my enthusiasm I might have overlooked it.

For the converters I had thought to go USB as I heard on the Aurora it was a better execution. I just heard back from Mytek that they're recommending FW with theirs though.

I was adding the Neve pre for variation and the possibility of needing 3 mics at once. If it's too similar to the GR I could look elsewhere as well. What do you think of the AEA RPQ500? Good for Ribbon mics?

As far as reaching into the new monitors area, for a small room can you get a more compact high quality speaker and save some $$? Or just don't try when it comes to monitors and do the right thing. Focal CMS40 or Genelec 6010A... or are these vastly inferior to the other gear I'm looking at and would just do the entire system a disservice.

Thanks again! I appreciate the feedback.

[Baz]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the Aurora products and in fact at one point we had 2 FF's, an Ensemble and an AuroraAES16. The RME's and Ensemble were mainly for remote and the Aurora was the Studio's static converter.

Recently, since leaving theold place I used to mainly work I've been kitting out my own room. It was well within my budget to go with an Aurora but I decided on a FF400 that I bought for a good deal right here on GS. Like any product, there are plenty of people that don't really care for it but I've used RME's as well as several great converters over the years and I have no problem with the quality even while recording delicate acoustic instruments. And again, the drivers are fantastic and if you've ever encountered problems with an interface, it's usually always driver related. TotalMix is also amazing - where conversely, the Lynx mixer is the worst, most unusable virtual mixer I've ever used.

I seem to recall a MBP that came out one year that didn't have a FW chip / input. If this is the case all I can suggest is what I recently did for my (PC) Laptop and look to get a SIIG 2 port Cardbuss adapter (Texas Instrument chipset) as I still think FW is the way to go over USB, BUT, apparently RME are doing a good job with this protocol, so it might be just fine lol.

I didn't even know that AEA made a 500 series mic amp


I can't comment on the monitors you're looking at and the only smaller nearfields I have experience with are Event 20/20's, NS10's, YSM1's, Adam A7's, Genelec 8020/8030's/8040's and the Dynaudio BM5a's I currently have in my small room. I've read lots of great things about the Focals though.

Seems like you're on the right track though.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Baz

...It was well within my budget to go with an Aurora but I decided on a FF400 )...

.

Similarly, I have always liked Lynx products. But for a long time I have been using RME, and when I upgraded the system last year I was presented with the same choice... RME or Lynx. In the end I chose RME. But that does not tell the whole story, as it appears to be somewhat common to use the RME cards with Lynx converters. As it happens I already had converters with which I was happy. (Mytek, if it matters. But there are so many good choices at reasonable prices.)

[PhilDW]

A few random comments, this is what I'm working up to as well.

If it's just you recording guitar and bass, why 8 channels? Future expansion? If you can get by with two, there are other choices, Lynx Hilo or Black Lion Sparrow seem high end in the two channel area, but I've not done a proper search.

+1 to the room stuff, and in most project smallish rooms that means bass traps to start with because of the nature of smallish rooms.

For monitoring, you may need just a monitor controller with a headphone amp if you mix in the box, I'm happy with UBK's Gain Train, input from the D/A of my LynxTwo card. If you don't get an AD/DA combined box(like the Aurora) then you'd get high end A/D on the way in and something like a Dangerous monitor controller or any of the other high end stuff with digital in and excellent D/A converters.

I think I'd add an LDC that works on guitar amps to get another flavor, AT 4047 maybe.

[BillEl]

I didn't necessarily need 8 but I wanted more than 2, sometimes I split the guitar signal and use two amps at once and 2 channels for recording seemed like I would just want to upgrade right away. I also wasn't finding any great 4 channel so it went to 8.

I'm going to do some research on the RME stuff as I like the idea of better mix control and better drivers. From what I can tell the Aurora gets better converter reviews so I'm not sure if I want to sacrifice quality for ease of use. TBD.

I am going to mix ITB so I would only "need" a 2 channel out, the suggestion of 4 out would be more flexible though.

I'm now thinking of upgrading my monitors to Neumann KH 120. It seems like there used to be good $500 monitors like the A7s or the BM5, both discontinued and the successors seem to be priced higher. If I'm going to have to spend $700 might as well spend $750. (The KH120 might beat out the Focal CMS65 too!)

Thanks for all the mic suggestion as well, it's got me looking more. Also thanks for the SIIG 2 port Cardbuss adapter tip I had been looking at the hdspe express card but it's quite pricy.

[cheu78]

The RME stuff is rock solid as other stated above, also the usb series and will sound good. I think that the new UCX might fit your needs perfectly..(even if the Babyface is a great deal).

I'd buy a pair of nice condensers (Violet Design the Globe or Amethyst Vintage, Brauner Phantera or anything Gefell) and a couple of ribbons (Coles 4038, Royer 121, Beyer 160 or a Shinybox if on the budget). Or start slow and buy an LDC and a ribbon..

Regarding the preamp with a "N" tone, I'd check out the Avedis MA5, seriously.. It costs less, sounds awesome and the build quality is excellent. It's a no brainer IMO. (and anything that Avedis does is really worth buying it.. That guy knows what he's doing and he has one only goal: making/designing stuff that sound AWESOME!)

Or a BAE DMP is another good alternative.. They don't sound the same btw.. Both very nice though in that "N" territory..

Monitors: the Focal CMS 65 are very nice indeed, never heard the KH120, but I'm sure that either of those will be a BIG step up from your previous monitoring system..

Just my 0.02$,


Cheu

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

The reason for 4 outputs... 2 for headphones, 2 for monitors.

and as I said, it is no big deal to use RME as the interface, with Aurora, Mytek, Larvy or any other converters that have a similar I/O. Mytek, for example, uses an optional daughter card for various formats like ADAT.

[MarkyGoldstein]

The most important thing in tracking is that you can hear what you actually record. The monitoring is the most important thing in my opinion.

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by BillEl

Thought I'd repost my question in case it got lost in all the info. (167 views and no replies?)

So my question, a side from looking for some general advice on the gear, is with this setup do you see any flaws in capturing studio quality sound?

Personally, I wouldn't care so much about the gear you list, it's fine. I'd want the instruments and amps I like, along with enough ASC Studio Traps and my M130s and SM80s, and then my monitors or something equivalent and enough more Studio Traps for the monitoring spot. The rest I could deal with, though I'd rather track and mix to tape as I currently do.

Cheers,

Otto