Apogee 16X converters, or Avid I/O

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I think I know the answer to this....sell my Apogees and go with the Avid HD i/o conversion, but...

I have an Apogee AD-16x and DA-16x and am moving from Symphony 64 w/ Logic to PT10 HD Native. I can get the HD i/o 16x16 digital and use my Apogees via AES/EBU, or I can sell my Apogees, and get the HD i/o 16x16 analog. I'd probably break even, as the HD analog is $2500 more, and that's probably what I can get for the pair of Apogees.

The question is...is there any reason to keep the Apogees vs. the Avid HD i/o? Mainly, I've been using the Apogees for about 5 years, and I'm pretty used to them, and in fact am quite satisfied with them, but obviously, the HD i/o analog would be a more streamlined solution. I am mixing into an analog console.

Thanks for any input.

For what it's worth, I A/B'd the two.
After that, I decided I don't need the Avid IO.

Besides the sound, what I really like about the Apogees is:

- no fan
- best calibration features
- Advanced routing mode

You can also get the X-HD-cards and thus don't need a digital Avid Interface.

Somewhere in the 'shootout'-forum you can listen to my test.

I also use them with a console (AWS900), but with HD3.

[jb_studio]

Hey Joe,

I'm with Kosmokrater on this. I would strongly suggest you give the new Avid I O an audition before you make any judgements...

Here's my story, in brief: Like you, I'm running Logic with Apogee AD/DA 16x converters (in my case via Pro Tools HD) and mixing through the console (…whenever time/budget permits, that is). With the advent of Pro Tools 10, I thought this would be a great time to 'upgrade' to an all Avid system. Like you, I was satisfied with the Apogees, but I figured in 5 years converter technology must have advanced a bit, and it would be great to try something new. And since I had encountered nothing but rave reviews of the Avid I O online, I decided to take the plunge and order an Avid I O 16x16 from Vintage King. My plan was to sell all four Apogees, which would pay off the Avid and hopefully put a little money in my pocket.

Well, after carefully listening and checking out the AD and DA stages of the Avid with a variety of material, I sent the Avid back, and I'm keeping the Apogees (two of them that is -- I'm sticking with my decision to downsize from 32 i/o to 16 i/o). For me, there was no contest really; the Apogees just had a wider, more natural sound compared to the Avid. This was quite a shock, as I expected to love the Avid and never look back. I lost $300 in shipping and incurred some studio downtime in the whole exercise, but I did gain a new respect for the Apogee boxes.

I think the lesson here is NOT that the Apogee X series is "better" than the new Avid , but rather that high-end converters are really as much a matter of taste as they are of technology. The sound of your room, the way your gear interacts in your environment, and most of all your personal taste will have far more to do with your decision than the spec sheets. High end converters are really like high end monitors in this respect; any one of them can potentially "do the job," but you will likely have strong feelings about which one you prefer and feel most comfortable owning. Honestly, this is something I've believed for some time, having encountered many different kinds of converters (Benchmark, Mytek, Cranesong, Euphonix, Digi, etc) in different studios in my day…but this latest anecdote really highlighted it for me.

I hope that helps…Cheers -- JB

[Joe Porto]

Thanks guys...great info.

I just got the HD Native/Omni bundle. Originally, I was using PT10 30 day demo with Symphony 64 and the 16Xs (and logic before that). I was going to just buy PT10, but wanted the features of CPTK, which would have cost $2700 just for software. I ended up getting a killer deal on the HD Native Omni bundle from my local dealer.

Unfortunately, HD native doesn't work with the Apogee X-HD card, which is why I was thinking about the HD i/o digital solution. But I just found this on the Apogee site regarding the AD series w/ X-HD card:

System Requirements:
Pro Tools HD Core, Process or Accel PCI card
Software: Pro Tools HD 9 or lower
Pro Tools 10 and HDX support expected Q1 2012

So I will call Apogee tomorrow and make sure that this will include the HD native card.

If so, I'll skip the HD i/o and wait for the X-HD firmware update. I'll just run PT10 in native mode with the Symphony 64 in the mean time.

[waldie wave]

The new Symphony i/o is worth considering.

[bforest4]

Wow, not sure what you guys are listening on, but I did multiple shootouts and switched from my Apogee AD/DA 16X system to the Avid HD I/O. The Avid is clearer, more transparent, more natural, more 3D. I also had a Mytek 8X8 192 I/O which did not hang with the Avid HD I/O and is now gone. The Apogee is more analog sounding which I could see some prefer but I'd rather have the option of adding that in if needed with plugins or outboard gear. I am listening on high end stuff - Barefoots and Adam S3X for monitors, and a Cranesong Avocet(which smokes all other monitor controllers I have tried(Xmon, SSL, Neve 8816) for clarity). That is great news about support from Apogee for the DA16X, I still have one left and could use more outputs for my summing mixer and the different flavor might be cool.

(I might also add that my audiophile brother was in the room and thought the Avid was far better than the Apogee. He owns a B&W 802/Levinson Amp system which sounds amazing.)

[Space Station]

I found the same, after testing for a month I returned the Avid converters, didn't hear anything that made me want to switch from Apogee DA/AD16x

[Joe Porto]

Well, for me, I'm not as concerned about the difference in converter quality (I think either can make great records), as I am getting a solid PT HD system, that will be supported for a good 5 years, as economically as possible.

I actually talked to Apogee again today about the X-HD firmware. I was told that the X-HD already works with HD Native on PT 9, just not PT10. They are currently working on firmware that will allow for PT10 compatibility. Thinking about it, if I go the X-HD route, I'm going to have to spend $1000 on X-HD cards, and then, if PT11 comes out (hopefully 64bit), I may be waiting for another firmware update....so I decided against that route. So then I'm back to the HD i/o digital for $2500, plus AES/EBU cabling, more complicated WC setup, etc. if I keep the Apogees.

The HD i/o 16x16 analog is $5000, and I can get $3000 for my apogees, so basically, it is most economical and most efficient to go with the HD i/o analog (plus the Omni, giving me 20 ins and 24 outs), plus I've got current gear that will be supported for the foreseeable future.

So, in short, I called my local dealer today and ordered the HD i/o analog interface and the apogees are going up for sale.

Thanks for all the input...it was definitely helpful in my decision.

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by bforest4

Wow, not sure what you guys are listening on, (...)

(I might also add that my audiophile brother was in the room and thought the Avid was far better than the Apogee. He owns a B&W 802/Levinson Amp system which sounds amazing.)

Thanks. I'm actually listening on B&W 802D.
were you sure to calibrate them to each other to .1 db ?

[Joe Porto]

But what kind of power cord was used on the Levenson amp? And was this with or without Shakti stones on the interconnects?

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Space Station

I found the same, after testing for a month I returned the Avid converters, didn't hear anything that made me want to switch from Apogee DA/AD16x

Same here.

[Joe Porto]

Well, I'm certainly going to have both systems running for the time being...Symphony 64 with 16x32 channels of 16Xs and HD native with 20x24 channels of HD i/o. I'll run them both to the patch bays, and do some comparisons, but unless the Apogees totally blow me away over the HD i/o (and I've never before found the subtleties between decent converters mind blowing), I am going go with the the Avid conversion.

[JBQIII]

update?

[T_R_S]

I waited for months for Apogee to update their firmware to work on my HDX cards. I could no longer wait I had to get rid of all four of my Apogee's for Avid HD I/O (which sound great)
I liked my Apogee's but they lost a 10 year + customer.
FWIW I found the Apogee's unreliable as well and their repair service slow.
I had a bad 192 once and we got a repaired unit the next day.
Apogee service took 6-8 weeks. I paid extra once for rush Apogee service they took 3 weeks not the promised 3 days they they shipped me the wrong unit.
I have had one too many horror stories to bad because I really like the convertors but I need them work all the time.

[BigGreen]

Wait till you try to get the Avid IO repaired, as I have.
In fact, I have moved past trying, and now have a new 16x16 with a bad power switch just collecting dust because I refuse to buy an support call to set up an RMA.
And their fuqin system wont take either of the codes I was given when I bought the pieces of shit.

Avid is a sinking ship,....

You just think Apogee support sucks,...

I would also add, that if reliability was what you wanted,... 192s.



I wish, every day, I had my Apogees back.


D

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Wait till you try to get the Avid IO repaired, as I have.
In fact, I have moved past trying, and now have a new 16x16 with a bad power switch just collecting dust because I refuse to buy an support call to set up an RMA.
And their fuqin system wont take either of the codes I was given when I bought the pieces of shit.

Avid is a sinking ship,....

You just think Apogee support sucks,...

I would also add, that if reliability was what you wanted,... 192s.



I wish, every day, I had my Apogees back.


D

Damn D, that sucks.
Still happy with my Apogees here.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Wait till you try to get the Avid IO repaired, as I have.
In fact, I have moved past trying, and now have a new 16x16 with a bad power switch just collecting dust because I refuse to buy an support call to set up an RMA.
And their fuqin system wont take either of the codes I was given when I bought the pieces of shit.

Avid is a sinking ship,....

You just think Apogee support sucks,...

I would also add, that if reliability was what you wanted,... 192s.



I wish, every day, I had my Apogees back.


D

The opposite of my avid experience, but there you go!

[passmore]

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Wait till you try to get the Avid IO repaired, as I have.
In fact, I have moved past trying, and now have a new 16x16 with a bad power switch just collecting dust because I refuse to buy an support call to set up an RMA.
And their fuqin system wont take either of the codes I was given when I bought the pieces of shit.

Avid is a sinking ship,....

You just think Apogee support sucks,...

I would also add, that if reliability was what you wanted,... 192s.




I wish, every day, I had my Apogees back.


D

Sorry but if you are in the US Avid will give you overnight shipping with a cross ship repair. You'll be up and running in less than 24 hours.
So I call BS on this obviously made up story.
OTH Apogee does not even offer this service as an option Apogee service is notoriously slow.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by passmore

Sorry but if you are in the US Avid will give you overnight shipping with a cross ship repair. You'll be up and running in less than 24 hours.
So I call BS on this obviously made up story.
OTH Apogee does not even offer this service as an option Apogee service is notoriously slow.

In the uk you can do advance replacement - they send you the new one and a prepaid postage label - you send the old one back within a timeframe.

Yes you pay for it; but it's a nice option to have!

[Sofa King]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I think I know the answer to this....sell my Apogees and go with the Avid HD i/o conversion,

I did.

best,
Sean

[popmann]

Yeah, sell them to me...CHEAP!

[Sofa King]

Originally Posted by popmann

Yeah, sell them to me...CHEAP!

Ive got a DA16X left, you interested?

[BigGreen]

Originally Posted by passmore

Sorry but if you are in the US Avid will give you overnight shipping with a cross ship repair. You'll be up and running in less than 24 hours.
So I call BS on this obviously made up story.
OTH Apogee does not even offer this service as an option Apogee service is notoriously slow.

Any advice you might have would be appreciated.
Best I can tell I can't get an RMA without buying a support call.
Tried online and the phone,...

I would prefer my story be BS.
Help me prove you right.


Let me know.


D

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Any advice you might have would be appreciated.
Best I can tell I can't get an RMA without buying a support call.
Tried online and the phone,...

I would prefer my story be BS.
Help me prove you right.


Let me know.


D

If you buy a support call to get an RMA when you talk to them they will refund your ASC cost - they did it for me.

[BigGreen]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

If you buy a support call to get an RMA when you talk to them they will refund your ASC cost - they did it for me.

Great idea.
I should have tried that.
After seeing the other post I spent all evening trying to figure out what I was missing,... couldn't.
I was about to buy the ASC, and I just couldn't give those sh1theads another dollar. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops like that after spending this kind of money. The cable company has better support. I decided I would rather just see a audio tech with that money, than Avid. They went off to Nashville today.

Thanks for the idea, though.

After a decade of feeding the Avid beast thousands a year, I just can't anymore. Not even a simple ASC case. Once I get out from under these Avid I/Os and get my Apogees back,... I am going to have a nice long life at PT9. I have no shortcomings in my rig, as is,... I was a fool to be chasing the upgrade monkey in the first place. Lesson learned.

Avid IO and PT10 is a lot of money for no sonic improvement.
My bad.

When your happy,... don't change anything.

The simple fact is, I need to start getting the life out of this tech like I could a board and tape machine.

If I am going to drop cash, it has to sound better from now on, because the functionality I need is already here.


Thanks again!


D

[SeeDub]

Originally Posted by bforest4

Wow, not sure what you guys are listening on, but I did multiple shootouts and switched from my Apogee AD/DA 16X system to the Avid HD I/O. The Avid is clearer, more transparent, more natural, more 3D. I also had a Mytek 8X8 192 I/O which did not hang with the Avid HD I/O and is now gone. The Apogee is more analog sounding which I could see some prefer but I'd rather have the option of adding that in if needed with plugins or outboard gear. I am listening on high end stuff - Barefoots and Adam S3X for monitors, and a Cranesong Avocet(which smokes all other monitor controllers I have tried(Xmon, SSL, Neve 8816) for clarity). That is great news about support from Apogee for the DA16X, I still have one left and could use more outputs for my summing mixer and the different flavor might be cool.

(I might also add that my audiophile brother was in the room and thought the Avid was far better than the Apogee. He owns a B&W 802/Levinson Amp system which sounds amazing.)

Symphony? HDIO is best Avid interface they ever did but the Symphony is way more flexible and expandable. Sounds better than the AD16X -

[BigGreen]

Originally Posted by BigGreen

Great idea.
I should have tried that.
After seeing the other post I spent all evening trying to figure out what I was missing,... couldn't.
I was about to buy the ASC, and I just couldn't give those sh1theads another dollar. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops like that after spending this kind of money. The cable company has better support. I decided I would rather just see a audio tech with that money, than Avid. They went off to Nashville today.

Story gets better fellas.
Avid doesn't stock the power switch.
My repair tech is having to go to their OEM supplier and get either a new complete power supply or have them replace the switch in it.

It is like trying to get a black chassis TC M5000 fixed.
No parts.

If I were you, I would use a power supply to power on an off your Avid HDio.
That is if you keep the garbage.

unreal.

The joke that is Avid seems to lack a punch line.



Balls in your mouth Avid!
D

[benny cha cha]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Somewhere in the 'shootout'-forum you can listen to my test.

Kosmokrator, i found your da16x/hd io shootout, but was unable to find your results. could you please post? would be most helpful for me.

thanks
b

[Doc Mixwell]

The AD/DA16x have a mellowed sound. The are big in the bass, soft and sweet. Thick'ish with Fullness and Body. Wonderful converters. Used em for years. Would use em again, no problem. However, I don't like passing analog mixes back into them. Much prefer the Symphony here, and well, pretty much everywhere else too. There is really no contest from the AD/DA16x // The Symphony is superlative.

The HD I/O is very honest to my ear, and has really low noise. There is excellent headroom in this circuit. MUCH better than the 192's and 96's. I find this unit really clean and open. Great top end and mid range detail. I hear it as drier sounding than the Apogee hardware, but still smooth. It is more "out of the way" and represents the source well. And of course these interfaces are bullet proof with Avid Core Card systems, so you will be assured rock solid integrity with your system.

[arrowood101]

Honestly one of the happiest days of my life was when my work switched out their (3) DA and (3) AD 16x for the PT HD rig. Always found them a pain, needing reset on boot up, etc. Also do not miss the sound of them compared to the HD I/Os.

Have not tried the Apogee Symphony system. Was happy personally to see the switch.