Api 2500 vs Smart C2 mix buss compression

[ron florentine]

I am close to puchasing a mix buss compressor.i currently use the Avalon 747,which I love the EQ but hate the compressor.I am going to continue using the Eq portion of the 747 on the Mix buss but what to add a new compressor to the equation.
I have not found many post or people who have worked with the API 2500..... Has anyone actually heard the difference between the old vs new mode.From API press they say that old mode is like a fairchild more retro compressor and the new mode is like a SSL thing.How well does the API do the SSL thing in new mode.
My other consideration is the Smart C2 which I have heard many great things about but doesnt seem quite as versital as the API( except for dual mono operation).
The bulk of my business is Alternative Rock so I am looking for a mix buss compressor with a little attitude and punch that will glue the mix together and get me closer to that major label sound.Thanks for any input and you time greatly appreciated!!!

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[blackcatdigi]

You may want to order one of the Compressor Shootout DVDs from Michael Wagener, as both were included... Decide for yourself!

[doug_hti]

i just got a c2 the other day. I love it. It is very versatile. I was considering the 2500 and the c2, but didn't hear the 2500. The c2 was also much more attractive (as you said) with the dual mono functions, as I will also use it for tracking at times. It is very fast. The crush feature, although quite extreme, seems to be more useful than I thought. I may still end up with a 2500 at some point, but I couldn't be happier, one of the best purchases I've made.

[Fletcher]

I've found that the 'upside' of the 2500 is that you can really tailor the character of the compression to be rather subtle (as in pretty seamless/unobtrusive dynamic range control) or rather aggressive... with a 'hard knee' and the 'thrust' set to "loud" and the 'new' thing engaged it can really sound rather similar to an Alan Smart C-2... but [the inevitable but] it can't quite do the ultra aggressive "crush" thing the C-2 can do and it doesn't do 'dual mono'...

[Jax]

... and here I am trying to decide whether to upgrade the acoustics (actually, more like apply any) to my control room or save a little more for a C2....

I'm still leaning towards doing the acoustics, but threads like these almost change my mind!

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by ron florentine
I am close to puchasing a mix buss compressor.i currently use the Avalon 747,which I love the EQ but hate the compressor.I am going to continue using the Eq portion of the 747 on the Mix buss but what to add a new compressor to the equation.
I have not found many post or people who have worked with the API 2500..... Has anyone actually heard the difference between the old vs new mode.From API press they say that old mode is like a fairchild more retro compressor and the new mode is like a SSL thing.How well does the API do the SSL thing in new mode.
My other consideration is the Smart C2 which I have heard many great things about but doesnt seem quite as versital as the API( except for dual mono operation).


Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

Hey Ron You should do a search on here, this has been kicked around alot.
I'm in the market for a stereo comp for 2 buss and tracking, I've been thinking about the cranesong stc-8, which many on here like.
I'd like to tryout the stc-8, the api, and the c2.
Peace
daniel

[ron florentine]

I hear the Cranesong stc8 is amazing but very transparent.I am looking for something that adds a little more character and putch to the mix.The other contenders were the SSL 384.Focusrite Red 3 & Manley vari-Mu(i dont think the mu would be aggressive enough)Both the API & the Smart seemed to be a good choice.
I did read one post that said the old mode on the API 2500 sounded great but the new mode(SSL thing) was nothing special.So still seeking real world opinions on that issue.It seems to go between those 2 types of compression would be a huge advantage.Although , I would rather have one or two great sounds than a ton of good sounds.
Great info so far....thanks!

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[mpr3]

While I suggest you check out Michael's DVD (has tons, including the ones you are looking at plus the Pendulum, Manleys (3), Distressors, Millenia and Chandler LTD to name a few), I will still give my amateur impressions based on subtle usage of these compressors.

The C2 was by far the easiest to use in terms of dialing in usable mix compression and when I asked Michael if it reminded him of his SSL days, he said, 'absolutely'. To my ears, the imparted color of the C2 falls somewhere between the 2500 and the STC-8. The crush button puts this guy in a world of its own.

The 2500 was a bit trickier to figure out than the C2 since it has a variety of knobs/buttons that all seem to interact with eachother and most importantly, the compression itself. Once figured out, it was easy to dial in mellow to earth-shattering compression, but the sound of the API was always apparent. This thing is Rock n' Roll.

The STC-8 surprised me most of all since I had read over and over how clean and transparent it is. While you can set it to be EXTREMELY transparent, I heard some definite character at times. Most noticeable color came when the middle switch (I think Ki/Hara?) was toggled. It sounded like some very mild distortion that could come in handy for certain mixes. Unfortunately I didn't get to grok this piece as much as I would have liked due to its complexity (I believe this was the only one that forced Michael whip out the manual), but I heard enough to make it essential for my studio.

My verdict is, while they all KICK ASS, if you can afford the STC-8 then get it. These days it is very easy to get your mix full of character/color before 2 bus compression, and because of that, the STC-8 will no doubt keep you happiest the longest.

[lucey]

Ron,

I have the STC-8 for the 2 mix and yes it's uncolored as compared to the C1/C2/SSL or the 2500.

Again, I'd suggest you try them out.

If you want color the 2500 or a Drawmer 1969 might be for you. I found the 2500 too colored in old mode and not enough like the SSL sound in new, but thats me. I use tape and have other gear choices (trakkers, distressors, MC76, etc)

The SSL sound appeals to me still because it's a unique sound, great for bass guitar or the occasional vocal IMO ... not so great for 2 mix. So I do want one eventually. But again I use tape. I dont care for the SSL on digi tracks as it adds some emphasis to the bad tone of digi, in my ear.

The 2500 is better for digi, more versatile for 2 mix, not as good for tracking IMO. Personally I dont need that color, or any 2 mix color, so I have the STC-8. You need color? 2500 or 1969 or a pair of Trakkers.

Obviously nothing is the be all end all so try them out and see what works for you right now. Talking here will not help you further, at this point.

[bobmix]

I own and regularly use lots of stereo compressors. The API 2500, for the price, has 5 or 6 very different and useable "sounds". When approximating an SSL program compressor, it comes close, but to me, has a better hf extension and a lot more width (I like both).
It is possible to use it in a somewhat "transparent" fashion - careful w/attack-release, and don't hit it too hard.
Again, I thing this piece is a great value.
Good luck

[everglass]

We have the Al Smart C1. I tried both the C1 and C2 side by side and we actually preffered the C1 for the mix buss. It seemed to be more subtle where we could always hear the C2 when it was patched in. The C1 seemed to be more musical to us.

On tracking applications we preffered the C2 however as we were primarily after a mix bus compressor we ultimately went for the C1 as I said earlier.

You really have to try these things and make your own mind up. There are so many great tools out there. At the end of the day if you are good at what you do you can make anything work that is of reasonable quality.

[Etnier]

I have minimal experience with the SSL compressors and none with the Smarts. I do really appreciate the 2500 for its flexibility- it has so much control you can tailor it for a wide variety of sources.

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by ron florentine
I am close to puchasing a mix buss compressor.i currently use the Avalon 747,which I love the EQ but hate the compressor.I am going to continue using the Eq portion of the 747 on the Mix buss but what to add a new compressor to the equation.
I have not found many post or people who have worked with the API 2500..... Has anyone actually heard the difference between the old vs new mode.From API press they say that old mode is like a fairchild more retro compressor and the new mode is like a SSL thing.How well does the API do the SSL thing in new mode.
My other consideration is the Smart C2 which I have heard many great things about but doesnt seem quite as versital as the API( except for dual mono operation).
The bulk of my business is Alternative Rock so I am looking for a mix buss compressor with a little attitude and punch that will glue the mix together and get me closer to that major label sound.Thanks for any input and you time greatly appreciated!!!

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

I have a 747 too, and at times am disappointed with the compressor on the 2 bus as well (but I like it a lot on drum overheads). What particularly is it about the 747's compressor you don't like in the 2-bus application? Thanks.

[ron florentine]

I feel the Avalon 747 sounds great on the 2 bus in alot of aplications.Like I said in a previous post ...I love the EQ section and the ability to switch between tube or solid state signal path is awesome........the compressor is very finicky and not very fast.If i do a minor squash it actually works fine.Where it lacks is when I am mixing more agressive music and I need to slam it more and have a little more attitude on the 2.
I will most likely continue to use the 747 for the EQ(a maybe just a touch of light compression) in combination with a more agressive comp like the Smart C2 or API 2500 or ???? Thanks to all again for your insights ......it actually helping quite a bit....still open for more opinions!!!!

Thanks
Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[cebolao]

Originally posted by ron florentine
The other contenders were the SSL 384.Focusrite Red 3 & Manley vari-Mu(i dont think the mu would be aggressive enough)Both the API & the Smart seemed to be a good choice.

I have just heard Vari-Mu at my friend's mastering studio and i was AMAZED how it made the hiphop mix bigger and fatter . I'm also not decided what comp to buy, there was 2500 on my list and Vari-Mu is there for sure now. Anybody can compare the two? Most of my work is hiphop stuff.

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by ron florentine
I feel the Avalon 747 sounds great on the 2 bus in alot of aplications.Like I said in a previous post ...I love the EQ section and the ability to switch between tube or solid state signal path is awesome........the compressor is very finicky and not very fast.If i do a minor squash it actually works fine.Where it lacks is when I am mixing more agressive music and I need to slam it more and have a little more attitude on the 2.
I will most likely continue to use the 747 for the EQ(a maybe just a touch of light compression) in combination with a more agressive comp like the Smart C2 or API 2500 or ???? Thanks to all again for your insights ......it actually helping quite a bit....still open for more opinions!!!!

Thanks
Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

I agree with you. I find if you tinker with a lot you can eliminate its tendency to pump the sound, but you really have to carefully tweak the input, ratio, threshhold, attack and release. I've used the 747 in tandem with the Drawmer 1969 to great effect.

[lucey]

Originally posted by cebolao
I have just heard Vari-Mu at my friend's mastering studio and i was AMAZED how it made the hiphop mix bigger and fatter . I'm also not decided what comp to buy, there was 2500 on my list and Vari-Mu is there for sure now. Anybody can compare the two? Most of my work is hiphop stuff.

You would want to hear the Drawmer 1969 as well.

The 2500 has the most options.

[Etnier]

I had a 1969 in here for quite a while but just couldn't get the drive, edge, whatever I was looking for with it. The 2500 represented a big step forward for me.

[ron florentine]

Has anyone here who has worked with the API 2500 had any promblems with it not having any input control?I have heard if you hit it to hard at the mix buss that you end up having to much compression or just overload it.All my other stereo compressor I own have some sort of input control....so wondering if anyone out there is having any issues with that?

Thanks Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[Etnier]

Yer Input control is yer Threshold control

[ron florentine]

I do understand that your threshold would act as your input control.My concern is .....if you were really pushing the 2 bus ,you would run into a promblem at even the highest thresholds settings and the compression would be kicking to hard at the 2 .I spoke to Michael Wagener and he stated that he could not get the compressor to take less than 5-6 DB off the mix no matter what settings he tried.Generally speaking 2-4 DB is plenty for a mix squash(yes there are ecceptions).
I know he only had the API 2500 for a short while to do his mix buss compression test........so I wanted a opinion from someone who has spent some time with the unit to see if this really is an issue to be concerned with.

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by ron florentine
I do understand that your threshold would act as your input control.My concern is .....if you were really pushing the 2 bus ,you would run into a promblem at even the highest thresholds settings and the compression would be kicking to hard at the 2 .I spoke to Michael Wagener and he stated that he could not get the compressor to take less than 5-6 DB off the mix no matter what settings he tried.Generally speaking 2-4 DB is plenty for a mix squash(yes there are ecceptions).
I know he only had the API 2500 for a short while to do his mix buss compression test........so I wanted a opinion from someone who has spent some time with the unit to see if this really is an issue to be concerned with.

Couldn't you just send less to it and just tickle it? Hey I'm not using a mix buss comp yet so this whole thing is up in the air for me
What did michael end up getting for his main 2 buss comp anyway? I may end up getting the api, but it looks a bit trickier to get it to work as a dual mono unit. I'm on prostools so maybe I want the color units rather than the transparent?
daniel

[lucey]

Originally posted by ron florentine
I do understand that your threshold would act as your input control.My concern is .....if you were really pushing the 2 bus ,you would run into a promblem at even the highest thresholds settings and the compression would be kicking to hard at the 2 .I spoke to Michael Wagener and he stated that he could not get the compressor to take less than 5-6 DB off the mix no matter what settings he tried.Generally speaking 2-4 DB is plenty for a mix squash(yes there are ecceptions).
I know he only had the API 2500 for a short while to do his mix buss compression test........so I wanted a opinion from someone who has spent some time with the unit to see if this really is an issue to be concerned with.

I don't know Mr. Wagener or his setup, yet the output must have been REALLY FRIGGIN HOT for that to be the case! Hot as in something was not set up right, I'm sure.

Do you really think API would design a piece for 2 mix use that would be incompatible with the levels of some users?

[mwagener]

Originally posted by lucey
I don't know Mr. Wagener or his setup, yet the output must have been REALLY FRIGGIN HOT for that to be the case! Hot as in something was not set up right, I'm sure.

Do you really think API would design a piece for 2 mix use that would be incompatible with the levels of some users?

Well, we recorded the mix digitally to two tracks of the R-1 and then send it to each of the 14 compressors we had. All the compressors took the input level fine, except the API. The level was about -1dB on th R-1 meters, which is what I normally deliver to my mastering engineer and I would think that this is similar to a mastering session where the client comes in with a file/tape at a certain level. To me it doesn't make much sense having to bring that level down to make it louder again with a compressor. Also if only one out of 14 compressors shows that behaviour, it tells me that there is a good possibility that nothing was wrong with the setup. I'm am not saying that the API is a bad compressor, it sounds great, especially if you're into color, I just think that it could do with a control for the input level.

Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
What did michael end up getting for his main 2 buss comp anyway?

I decided on the CraneSong STC-8. Please keep in mind that I was looking for a TRANSPARENT compressor and all my comments HERE are based on that goal. I still have most of the compressors at WireWorld for the next workshop. I will check the API with a reduced level and post my findings.

[Etnier]

My standard setup is mixing through a digital board to HEDD 192, out of the HEDD D/A to the 2500 (sometimes EQ also) and then back in the HEDD for SRC. Using the HEDD analog out my threshold varies around 11:00-2:00. Clearly a different setup than most, but it happens to put me in a comfortable control range.

[ron florentine]

Thanx Michael for the explanation on the your testing setup.Cant wait to hear the DVD of all the different mixbuss compressors.Thanks again for all your time and effort that you put in.

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[lucey]

No offense but you must have had another issue somewhere. Maybe a cable set was unbalanced. Or perhaps that unit was functioning improperly.

I had the 2500 here for a sufficient amount of time and it responded to loud material like every other piece.

Anyone else ever have this problem with a 2500?
If not ... something else was going on.



On a side note .. that STC-8 is a very nice clean-er unit. I also chose a used STC-8 over the 2500, 1969, C1, Pendulum MU, etc (thanks to Mercenary for the oppurtunity to demo.) I was also looking for purity, not color.

Yet the STC-8, similar to the 2500 has no 'input gain'. It has makeup gain, as is the case for most compressors. Threshold and Gain.

[JYoder]

Yes, I've had this problem every time I've used one. Switched to any other compressor (Vari-Mu, SSL, AlSmart, 33609,STC-8) and had no problem. If you push your stereo bus and get your mix sounding like it's supposed to, but just want a little tightening up at the end, the API can't seem to just grab the peaks. Even at it's highest threshold. Tried it with both analog and digital.

Probably if you mix with it in-line and raise the output it'd be ok. Or lower the stereo bus output and put it in-line after the output. But it's a problem if you put it on the stereo bus insert.

[lucey]

Originally posted by JYoder
Yes, I've had this problem every time I've used one. Switched to any other compressor (Vari-Mu, SSL, AlSmart, 33609,STC-8) and had no problem....
Probably if you mix with it in-line and raise the output it'd be ok. Or lower the stereo bus output and put it in-line after the output. But it's a problem if you put it on the stereo bus insert.

Very intresting.

I didn't use as insert ... it was after the 2 mix outs so that's a difference right there.

And I used it in mastering.

Yet it's still hard to believe ... mmmm .. are your inserts unbalanced? Maybe there's a +6 thing happening that takes it out of range.


puzzled,
brian

[JYoder]

Nope... Used it on an API and a Trident console. And PT.
BTW... the C2 with the API console was incredible!