Is Digital Amp modeling the future of guitar tone?

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

If that technology didn't exist then their sound would be different and we'd appreciate them for their different sound.

I fully disagree. Jimi Hendrix sound was one of electricity and power. You cannot replicate that with a POD or an emulation. Stacks of 200 watt Marshalls helped him to create that sound, as it did with Black Sabbath, Cream and many notable early bands that pushed guitar amps, which led to new heights of creativity.

The magic of 60's rock was partially due to the power and feeling of cranking up an guitar amplifier (or multiple guitar amps) and creating something new. There's a feeling a guitarist has when he's playing through a cranked amp that you can't achieve with digital emulations.

[mattvdh]

I find it funny how every guitarist in this thread is deeply upset with the loss of the look and, well the look of the amp. It's really irrelevant to how it sounds, and with time digital will prevail based on popularity, ease of use, cost, etc.

Once the tube amp is replaced with a guitar or foot-switch with an on-board PC/processor/HD, you will think of these old war machines as a thing of the past.

There's nothing stopping digital from pushing forward and achieving tube amp tones with the mass audience these pods have been exposed to. It's software, and people like you and me can think up ways of improving it, and people around the globe around doing it every day. Tube amps are using the same designs from decades ago...

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

I find it funny how every guitarist in this thread is deeply upset with the loss of the look and, well the look of the amp. It's really irrelevant to how it sounds, and with time digital will prevail based on popularity, ease of use, cost, etc.

Once the tube amp is replaced with a guitar or foot-switch with an on-board PC/processor/HD, you will think of these old war machines as a thing of the past.

There's nothing stopping digital from pushing forward and achieving tube amp tones with the mass audience these pods have been exposed to. It's software, and people like you and me can think up ways of improving it, and people around the globe around doing it every day. Tube amps are using the same designs from decades ago...

I find it funny that you just don't understand that given a choice, any guitarist would choose an ACTUAL Plexi or AC30 or Diezel Herbert over a POD.

And if you think that a POD can replace an amp in a high end, professional environment, you need to visit a real recording facility.

[decocco]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

I find it funny how every guitarist in this thread is deeply upset with the loss of the look and, well the look of the amp. It's really irrelevant to how it sounds, and with time digital will prevail based on popularity, ease of use, cost, etc.

I don't care what my amps look like, I care how they sound!

I don't get the ease of use thing. Tube amps are easy to use. No drivers to install. Plug it in, turn it on, rock.

Tube amps are not necessarily expensive, either. You can buy a super cheap Epiphone tube amp if you are on a budget. If you are insane you can spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Dumble, but that's not really necessary.

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Tube amps are using the same designs from decades ago...

It's cuz the designs are good!

You can use whatever technology you like. I like tube amps. I even use solid state amps sometimes! Whatever works.

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by sailor

Perhaps in 20 or 50 years, they not only will have accurately modeled the mechanics of a grand piano's sound, but they also will have created some sort of speaker system to put inside the "mock piano" that can radiate that modeled sound exactly as a huge wooden soundboard does, and can transmit subtle vibrations exactly as the huge wooden case does. Then perhaps truly nobody will be able to tell the difference -- maybe not even the player.

But for me at least, that whole scenario raises the question "what's the point?" You could already HAVE a piano. What net gain has been achieved? Does nobody see a little irony here?

Same thing with guitars & amps, or woodwind instruments or whatever. Is plugging into an amp THAT onerous? Has your Pod, playing, as it must, through some sort of speaker device, saved you THAT much hassle over your Blues Junior?

Everyone agrees that digital instruments are here to stay -- they definitely have their place, and they have enabled lots of imaginative musicians to make music of the sort that could never be produced without the technology. But what puzzles many people is the weird suggestion that real flesh-and-blood instruments, solely by reason of cost or convenience (as nobody seems to have offered any other compelling reasons), are destined to become a quaint and laughable redundancy. If that really IS going to be the case, I'd argue that it's kind of sad.

what's the point? etc

You're suggesting that ANYONE could just have a grand piano and have it properly tuned and has the time and money for lessons. Well that's why digital piano's need to evolve to the point where it feels right because they're extremely cheap to produce and offer a multitude of sounds and songs to play along with and learn on your own.

[michj]

if history has taught us something, is that whoever fights against technology looses

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by michj

if history has taught us something, is that whoever fights against technology looses

That's right.

Cellos, Double Basses, Violins and Pianos don't exist anymore. For centuries, these instruments could be found in every civilized country and most cultures. But they're extinct, just like the acoustic guitar and trumpet and so many other instruments.

Lost to the ages.

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by decocco

I don't care what my amps look like, I care how they sound!

I don't get the ease of use thing. Tube amps are easy to use. No drivers to install. Plug it in, turn it on, rock.

Tube amps are not necessarily expensive, either. You can buy a super cheap Epiphone tube amp if you are on a budget. If you are insane you can spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Dumble, but that's not really necessary.

It's cuz the designs are good!

You can use whatever technology you like. I like tube amps. I even use solid state amps sometimes! Whatever works.

No, what I'm referring to is the ability to easily record demos. A noob can connect their pod, dial in a tone, and be recording riffs in less than an half hour or so.

If you wanted to get a good guitar tone from a tube amp on just a demo, well first, you need a well treated room with acoustic barriers to isolate the cabs, maybe a few really good mics and prea mps and a mixer and then it finally gets the pc. And I haven't even included the millions of variables you should consider if you're new to setting up a room and setting up everything else.

This pods are relatively simple in comparison, and if you know your way around a computer, this stuff is a breeze. Maybe I'm overstating it's simplicity because people in my generation grew up with computers so it's all very familiar to us, where as the old farts here might find it complicated or difficult to use. :-P

And all tube amps that are worth using are expensive, are you kidding me?? Have you seen how these amps are manufactured? it's like a ferrari assembly line or something. Pods can be pump out 1000's a day because there's nothing to it. Software is an amazing thing!

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

No, what I'm referring to is the ability to easily record demos. A noob can connect their pod, dial in a tone, and be recording riffs in less than an half hour or so.

If you wanted to get a good guitar tone from a tube amp, first you need a well treated room with acoustic barriers to isolate the cabs, maybe a few mics and preamps and a mixer and then it finally gets the pc. And I haven't even included the millions of variables you should consider if you're new to setting up a room and setting up everything else.

So, you're talking amateur hour? Not a professional, master quality recording? People use PODs to demo songs? Really?

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by michj

if history has taught us something, is that whoever fights against technology looses

Bang on the money.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Bang on the money.

Yep. No one records pianos or orchestral instruments anymore, especially drums and percussion. They're ancient and have been replaced entirely with digital samples.

I don't even know where you can see a live orchestra these days. Do you?

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, you're talking amateur hour? Not a professional, master quality recording? People use PODs to demo songs? Really?

You're really out of the loop buddy! Everyone has a pod these day.

Like I've been saying, if you live in an apartment or have a kid then you simply CAN'T blast your amp and get all of those juicy tones out of your amp. Plus you need to mic it, and that introduces a whole new set of problems/setbacks like micing position, your friend walking in during a take and his/her cell phone goes off, phase, levels, even RF interference.

And Yes! Full polished demos are being produced as we speak with pods. musicians are jumping on board to these because they're so convenient and easy to setup and use. So my prediction is that in the next 5-10 years one of the bigger companies will release pod with a tube or a new chipset that seriously gives you a tube sound and feel.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

You're really out of the loop buddy! Everyone has a pod these day.

Like I've been saying, if you live in an apartment or have a kid then you simply CAN'T blast your amp and get all of those juicy tones out of your amp. Plus you need to mic it, and that introduces a whole new set of problems/setbacks like micing position, your friend walking in during a take and his/her cell phone goes off, phase, levels, even RF interference.

And Yes! Full polished demos are being produced as we speak with pods. musicians are jumping on board to these because they're so convenient and easy to setup and use. So my prediction is that in the next 5-10 years one of the bigger companies will release pod with a tube or a new chipset that seriously gives you a tube sound and feel.

I'm out of the loop?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

I find it funny how every guitarist in this thread is deeply upset with the loss of the look and, well the look of the amp. It's really irrelevant to how it sounds, and with time digital will prevail based on popularity, ease of use, cost, etc.

Once the tube amp is replaced with a guitar or foot-switch with an on-board PC/processor/HD, you will think of these old war machines as a thing of the past.

There's nothing stopping digital from pushing forward and achieving tube amp tones with the mass audience these pods have been exposed to. It's software, and people like you and me can think up ways of improving it, and people around the globe around doing it every day. Tube amps are using the same designs from decades ago...

One question - do you even play guitar to a competent standard?

If not, your opinion is null and void.

Personally, like the other pros on this board, I don't care what's easier, more convenient or what's best for learning - I care what sounds best, and what gets the best performance. I'm all for people learning the easiest way they can - then when and if they take it seriously, they can get the real thing.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

You're really out of the loop buddy! Everyone has a pod these day.

Like I've been saying, if you live in an apartment or have a kid then you simply CAN'T blast your amp and get all of those juicy tones out of your amp. Plus you need to mic it, and that introduces a whole new set of problems/setbacks like micing position, your friend walking in during a take and his/her cell phone goes off, phase, levels, even RF interference.

And Yes! Full polished demos are being produced as we speak with pods. musicians are jumping on board to these because they're so convenient and easy to setup and use. So my prediction is that in the next 5-10 years one of the bigger companies will release pod with a tube or a new chipset that seriously gives you a tube sound and feel.

Every thing you say puts convenience and learning over tone and player experience. You've got to realise thats just not a priority for those working at anything higher than a demo level!

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Yep. No one records pianos or orchestral instruments anymore, especially drums and percussion. They're ancient and have been replaced entirely with digital samples.

I don't even know where you can see a live orchestra these days. Do you?

You're talking about one single genre of music that a lot of people don't necessarily appreciate. Modern music is about making people dance and sing and let loose; most people like heavy bass and beats. If you gave a electronic or hiphop producer a piano they wouldn't know what to do with it or care to learn it. They want to create loops, beats, samples on their midi controller.

No... Orchestral instruments are for a certain class of people and tends to appeal to that class, not so much the general audience. As beautiful as a live piece may sound with an entire orchestra playing in perfect harmony, most people don't have the patience for that style of music to be franc. They want rock, rap, electronic, pop...and all of those with the exception of rock are in the digital world and use samples and keyboards, not pianos. People at the high level of techno and rap may record live instruments, but it doesn't make sense to bring them on tour with you or stage for a 2 minute sample in one song for that particular instrument. So they can build that into the keyboard or just have it already embedded in the vinyl track.

[Yuri Kogan]

[QUOTE=mattvdh;7102183]No, what I'm referring to is the ability to easily record demos. A noob can connect their pod, dial in a tone, and be recording riffs in less than an half hour or so.

If you wanted to get a good guitar tone from a tube amp on just a demo, well first, you need a well treated room with acoustic barriers to isolate the cabs, maybe a few really good mics and prea mps and a mixer and then it finally gets the pc. And I haven't even included the millions of variables you should consider if you're new to setting up a room and setting up everything else.

This pods are relatively simple in comparison, and if you know your way around a computer, this stuff is a breeze. Maybe I'm overstating it's simplicity because people in my generation grew up with computers so it's all very familiar to us, where as the old farts here might find it complicated or difficult to use. :-P


Pods are NOT simple. To setup a "decent" sound takes ages, and you still end up with a boring, 2D sound, lucking in dynamics and expression.
You call this a way forward? Just like the MP3 formats? I call it cheap consumerism.
To get a crappy sound like the emulators you dont need specific environments. Just turn the amp to the quietest setting and enjoy the somewhat luckluster , but "demo ready" noise.
If thats the future, its ugly....

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

You're talking about one single genre of music that a lot of people don't necessarily appreciate. Modern music is about making people dance and sing and let loose; most people like heavy bass and beats. If you gave a electronic or hiphop producer a piano they wouldn't know what to do with it or care to learn it. They want to create loops, beats, samples on their midi controller.

No... Orchestral instruments are for a certain class of people and tends to appeal to that class more than the general audience. As beautiful as a live piece may sound with an entire orchestra playing in harmony, most people don't have the patience for that. They want rock, rap, electronic, pop...and all of those with the exception of rock are in the digital world and use samples and keyboards, not pianos.

Yeah, orchestras are dead. They're never used in films anymore. It's all beatz.

And Los Angeles didn't just open an amazing concert hall called the Disney Theater for symphonic concerts. And the Hollywood Bowl is never sold out when John Williams and the LA Philharmonic perform, either.

And the new Kaufman Center for the Performing Arts didn't just open, in all places, in Kansas City. And no, their concert halls are not state of the art, either.



But you're right: Orchestral music is dead. Especially in Europe. It's all about the beatz.

[Traintrack]

Pass the grey poupon...

[IMG]******//t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-TmUbowK91LqyoAqUUCoXmpZJL0gCj8joa-1yk4yCjILnXDbVYw[/IMG]

[Avast!]

Yes, fine. Amp modeling IS the future of demoing.

Please move this thread, lol.

[mattvdh]

Originally Posted by Avast!

Yes, fine. Amp modeling IS the future of demoing.

Please move this thread, lol.

Correction: Amp modeling is presently the standard tool for musicians for recording home demos, however based on its popularity and ground its gaining, it may be the standard tool for studios and live situations. I think this is more than likely to occur given the way the economy is going combined with the power and functionality of software. Musicians can't afford 5-10k worth of gear these days! Times are changing.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Correction: Amp modeling is presently the standard tool for musicians for recording home demos, however based on its popularity and ground its gaining, it may be the standard tool for studios and live situations. I think this is more than likely to occur given the way the economy is going combined with the power and functionality of software. Musicians can't afford 5-10k worth of gear these days! Times are changing.

If "musicians" can't afford $5-10k worth of gear to record, the harsh reality is that their music is most likely not worth hearing. And most likely, they're in cover bands, so again, who cares?

POD's are toys. Plain and simple. Get back to me when someone chooses to use a POD emulation when the real amp is available.

Furthermore, if "musicians" don't have the ability of plugging a '57 into an Apogee Duet or M Audio box and mic'ing up an amp, they've got bigger problems than just affordability.

[thepilgrimsdream]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Guitarists wouldn't it be awesome to be able to show up to gigs and not have to lug your stack, pedals etc and set it all up and take it all down?! Imagine plugging your digital guitar (that never goes out of tune) directly in to the 20.1 channel PA (giddyup) via your bluetooth wireless device, and then finally press power on your guitar to load up your amp sims from the internal hard drive built in to your digital guitar.

This may sound a bit whacky to some of you but amp modeling is really gaining ground and that's because there's a lot of practical advantages to using amp modeling, cost being a top priority to many musicians in this economy. And more and more guitarist and bassists are becoming accustomed to modeling software and perfecting their guitar tones with the millions of VST/plugins available and millions of presets and options to tinker with.

And The disadvantages of producing tube amps the 'old fashioned' way are pretty heavy. They're expensive to manufacture and obviously to purchase, require upkeep/maintenance, heavy to lug around on tour and to jams, fuses and tubes can blow or shatter and damage the amp.

So do you think we will see an end to the conventional analog tube amp as the standard (live and studio) in this decade?

I cringe.

I have a 72 deluxe reverb tricked out by george allesandro and a marshall 50watt plexi.

These amps have their own unique character, so do the tubes and speakers. I feed off of them, they have got a vibe that can't be replaced, its more than just a sound, its a character, a personality, its almost like a relationship and interaction, that simply isn't permitters and settings.

No robot could ever be built to simulate a friendship or relationship in a way a real person could. This goes the same for amps in my opinion, although I'm sure amps could die out with us old school purists even though i am still young.

I'm sure in a metal band or even other styles of music, amp simulators work fine for what they are. But I have always hated them, they never inspired me, gave me that feeling. Its a sound fine enough to be recorded for whatever, but they will never do it for me

[robot gigante]

Getting all starry eyed about amp modeling is so 90's. Move on people!

[thepilgrimsdream]

About the pod thing.....

Pods are cool among the amateur kids and hacks i know, it allows kids to discover what different effects do and how to use them.

I am a music major in college, and am around in the indie and jazz scene in philly. I know a lot of players. I can't think of any serious players who use pogs. A lot of players are moving to smaller tube amps like the tiny terrors, black stars, egnators, ac15's, marshall class 5's, blues jrs, for inexpensive tube amps.

I don't think you need an extremely well treated room to get a great mic'd sound if your using dynamics on a guitar amp. Condensers can be a different story. The treatment helps of course

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Correction: Amp modeling is presently the standard tool for musicians for recording home demos, however based on its popularity and ground its gaining, it may be the standard tool for studios and live situations. I think this is more than likely to occur given the way the economy is going combined with the power and functionality of software. Musicians can't afford 5-10k worth of gear these days! Times are changing.

It's standard for "demos", it's standard for low end live work, and high end covers and so on.

It's most definitely NOT standard for high end recording, touring bands, and anyone who doesn't put versatility and convenience ahead of tone and player experience.

I don't know, maybe one day there will be a modeling amp that gives the same player feedback as a real amp. It's not there yet, but I'd wager if and when it is, it will still have a largish cabinet size (there goes the portability), it will need to to move the air to provide player feedback.

By the way, you've still not mentioned if you play to any sort of competent level? Care to answer?

[oceantracks]

"I use the same mic and signal chain for recording electric guitars, though I have to say that I only used real amps for about 40 percent of my parts on the album. For the other 60 percent I used the Logic 9 Amp Designer. I’ve used plug?in amps for a while, like the [IK] Amplitude and Digidesign [now Avid]’s Eleven, and I particularly love the sound of Amp Designer. For bass I used an Avalon VT737 direct signal path preamp. There are three or four tracks on which my demo bass survived, ‘Dear John’ being one of them. For going in and out of my DAW, I used the Apogee AD16X and the DA16X, although I just got the Symphony I/O, which sounds great. I also have the Cranesong Avocet monitor system.”" --Nathan Chapman


It's the record that's boss, and if a part sounds just as good with the sim, who cares?

I'd take a real amp any day over a sim, but only in a perfect situation...great room, great setup, etc. Sometimes that just isn't possible.

[Alrod]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

It's really irrelevant to how it sounds, .

Ok this comment basically tells it all. You are not at all concerned with tone/sound, only convenience. I highly doubt that you are even an accomplished guitarist.You need to understand that there are humans existing on this earth that care about tone/sound.

You cannot dismiss the comments of actual guitarists. Technology is great, but it cannot and will not replace everything. You also cannot dismiss the comments about all the various "real" instruments that still exist and will continue to exist.

I remember in the 80's when folks were saying that synthesizers were going to replace all instruments. 30 years later, and that prediction has still not come to fruition.

I don't think humans are yet ready to live in a complete plastic world. Not everyone is gullible enough to purchase snake oil.

[decocco]

Originally Posted by mattvdh

No, what I'm referring to is the ability to easily record demos. A noob can connect their pod, dial in a tone, and be recording riffs in less than an half hour or so.

If you wanted to get a good guitar tone from a tube amp on just a demo, well first, you need a well treated room with acoustic barriers to isolate the cabs, maybe a few really good mics and prea mps and a mixer and then it finally gets the pc. And I haven't even included the millions of variables you should consider if you're new to setting up a room and setting up everything else.

I guess we are recording different types of demos. When I'm recording a demo for a band it's generally just a fast session. We still mic up amps, everyone plays live in the room and we just go with it.

Isolation cabs are a pretty great solution for someone who wants real amp tone without making a lot of noise. You'd be surprised just how much energy can be dissipated by an isolation cab. With a good amp inside, the tone will crush an emulation.

Originally Posted by mattvdh

This pods are relatively simple in comparison, and if you know your way around a computer, this stuff is a breeze. Maybe I'm overstating it's simplicity because people in my generation grew up with computers so it's all very familiar to us, where as the old farts here might find it complicated or difficult to use. :-P

I grew up with computers too. I prefer real amps. They sound better. I'm not dismissing the emulations, I just don't think they will ever replace good tube amps. Work alongside them, yes.

Originally Posted by mattvdh

And all tube amps that are worth using are expensive, are you kidding me??

Good computers are expensive too. So should I replace my tube amps with something equally expensive that does not perform as well? No thank you!

Originally Posted by mattvdh

Have you seen how these amps are manufactured? it's like a ferrari assembly line or something. Pods can be pump out 1000's a day because there's nothing to it.

That's because assembly lines are necessary to make a product quickly, efficiently, and at high volume. Also, you still need some kind of amplifier to amplify the pod when playing live. It will be made on a "ferrari assembly line" just like the tube amps.

[Enlightened Hand]

Originally Posted by Mike P

...why does it sound like this? With NO post EQ?

Are you suggesting that it's impossible for a person to take their time and tweak a sound on a simulator that works? If you are I disagree.

But ultimately one should use what they want. I personally do think the real thing is the best sounding and I want it for the feel and the sound as often as I can get it. But that being said I'd take a good simulator in a minute if the situation presented itself as most practical and I'd tweak it and get a great sound. If a person can't get that going then that's on them and not the simulator because the good ones sound fine when tweaked right. No they're overall not the real thing, but it's good enough to rock and sound sweet and fool the ears of the vast majority most of the time, which is good enough for making music.