Is Digital Amp modeling the future of guitar tone?

[laddie.music2]

Originally Posted by beau_mckee

I used the axe fx II on an EP im doing, and was impressed with its sound. It doesn't sound like a real amp to me, based off my controlled studio environment where 90% of projects I use and mic up real amps. The Axe fx certainly had its own tone, and can be made to sound badass. Doesn't need to sound like a real amp, it sounds cool on its own. mind you this was a hardcore "djent" band and probably wouldn't use this unit for anything less gain unless I was in a pinch and needed some decent tones fast

That's a good point and I agree. Those modelers with plitube included. I think the biggest thing they struggle with is clean to slight overdrive compared to a real amp.

Death or fluid lead its less of an issue.

In fact you made me flash that every example pretty much has been heavy distortion. I'd like to see some clean examples next to a well mic'd amp. Or just compare to some light breakup 68 Hendrix

[mattg082]

I've been getting some of the best guitar sounds lately going di into a api 512c and using the following chain.

Satson console emulation
Dmg equality
Softube metal amp
(waves api 550b, optional for some color)
dsm spectrum
Cla signature guitar...the room ones for verb,delay ect.


Sounds simply awesome for when you want to just get going or just jam right away and have a stellar sound.

[Squidy]

Originally Posted by guittarzzan

When I get the KPA and some time, I'll try to put my money where my ears are. I will be making profiles of various tube amps and doing critical listening of recorded tracks. If you "haters" out there will put your mouths where your opinions are, I'll post some clips and you can state which ones you think sound like a real tube amp which ones sound like a modeler.

cheers,
Steve

Well, I'm not putting my money where my mouth is because I'm sure no expert in this regard, I just use what I have at my disposal. However, if you're going to do the side by side comparison I'd definitely love to hear it. I'd love to hear the sound differences and find out which one comes out on top etc. Would be great to hear from a learning perspective

And I say the above in all honestly, I'd love to see the differences and nuances between the two. I don't have access to a lot of gear so these kinds of things are great.

[Blenn]

I have a Hiwatt Custom 50 2 x 12 David Gilmour signature amp and a Orange Thunderverb 200 with an Orange 2 x 12 open back cabinet.

As well as these I have the Axe FX II version 5.01 software.

Which do I prefer - all of them. The axe is staggering full stop. Does it replace my valve amps, yes and no.

No in that I love having a loud amp on stage with me but my ears are starting to take their toll with the excessive volume on small venue level's

Yes in the studio I cannot tell the difference at all. Truthfully it's that good. The difference being with a valve amp of noteworthiness it's easy. With the AXE it takes a little time but you will get there no doubt.

I'm preferring the Axe FX II live, as well, because I'm starting to protect my ears and my amps need to be loud to get the best out of them (except the Orange which sounds great with the attenuator).

Guys - Valves were the future, back in the past. Modelling is here and it's getting better. The differences in the axe fx II firmware 1 to 5 is night and day and that's from the same unit.

Embrace, if you wish, or don't - regardless they both have their place and both can yield stunning results with the right talented individual.

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by Blenn

I have a Hiwatt Custom 50 2 x 12 David Gilmour signature amp and a Orange Thunderverb 200 with an Orange 2 x 12 open back cabinet.

Yes in the studio I cannot tell the difference at all.

Really?


I'm preferring the Axe FX II live, as well, because I'm starting to protect my ears and my amps need to be loud to get the best out of them (except the Orange which sounds great with the attenuator).

Get smaller amps. There are thousands of them out there in every power bracket, suitable for every style. For the price of axefx you can get half a dozen as well as a speaker emulator for your recording in a bedroom.
Guys - Valves were the future, back in the past. Modelling is here and it's getting better. The differences in the axe fx II firmware 1 to 5 is night and day and that's from the same unit.

Valve are now. If with gods help digital will give me the same results I will sell my collection (122 to date) and clear up some space
Embrace, if you wish, or don't - regardless they both have their place and both can yield stunning results with the right talented individual.

Very evangelical

....

[M4-10]

Originally Posted by Blenn

No in that I love having a loud amp on stage with me but my ears are starting to take their toll with the excessive volume on small venue level's

Think of how the audience must feel. (They're the ones complaining that they can't understand the vocals.)

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Blenn

No in that I love having a loud amp on stage with me but my ears are starting to take their toll with the excessive volume on small venue level's

amps have volume controls
and so do direct inputs on PA systems

the volume of the guitar in any venue, with any system, for the performer, or for the audience is a choice. The amp, the fronts and the monitors all have volume knobs.

the point of an 'amp on stage' is not the volume
but the point-source origin of the sound

In all but the very largest of venues, the amp in a specific location (even when miced up) beats the diffused sound of a sim coming from the PA system for THIS listener anyway, and I suspect many others.

[soulscience]

You can run it through a full range cab, like the atomic they pair it with.

[jrakarl]

I'm selling my Pod Pro XT.

I like processed sounds through good FX and I love my 100watt head, with master volume controls. I can record great sounds from amp, or direct FX devices.

The POD ain't the goods. My FX processor from early 90's is yet to be beaten by any other plug, or hardware amp emulator.

Amps and.the future - who knows. I just know what I like.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Gearslutz.com

[Rotaholic]

Well these guys would have clocked up more tube hours than most of us mere mortals could ever dream of and they just used the AXE FX on thier new album. Not my thing but sounds good

[beau_mckee]

Originally Posted by joeq

amps have volume controls
and so do direct inputs on PA systems

I am 99% positive he realizes that amps have volume controls. The point of an amp being cranked loud is that it will most likely sound better the harder you push the tubes and gives you a more desirable speaker action. I crank my amps super loud in the studio and I get better tones that way without a doubt. In some situations maybe not. Silent stage set ups with in ears is a different story.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by Rotaholic

Well these guys would have clocked up more tube hours than most of us mere mortals could ever dream of and they just used the AXE FX on thier new album. Not my thing but sounds good

OMG

Not too impressed with the guitar sound either tbh. E.g. listen to the the intro chords, they lack tonal intelligibility, and they have that typical frayed digital distortion sound.

[che_guitarra]

I love my L6 Flextone amp, and not for a second do I second guess recording through it. It may not offer a 100% authentic reproduction as per vintage spec, but i've never heard the real deal so what do I care? I can still make it rock... hard.

Any guitarist worth his salt will soon dial in with an amp on any setting and learn how to 'work it'. Stuck using Kurt Cobain's 'Bleach' session no-name gear, players like Jimi Hendrix or Steve Vai would easily adapt to find an awesome recordable tone... likewise if they were stuck with a Flextone like mine.

Ultimately - it comes down to skill. $20K worth of signal chain won't make up for a musician's lack of mojo.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by che_guitarra

I love my L6 Flextone amp, and not for a second do I second guess recording through it. It may not offer a 100% authentic reproduction as per vintage spec, but i've never heard the real deal so what do I care? I can still make it rock... hard.

Good for you!

Originally Posted by che_guitarra

..players like Jimi Hendrix ..

Jimi Hendrix went through crazy amounts of gear and had his own guitar tech(s). He was very much a sound hound, like many guitar players are. Cobain liked to sound lo-fi, that was a stylistic choice. But would he have preferred sounding lo-fi/crappy through an amp or an amp sim? Noise and distortion is most musical in the analog domain imo.

Originally Posted by che_guitarra

.
Ultimately - it comes down to skill. $20K worth of signal chain won't make up for a musician's lack of mojo.

Noone said it did. This is all about sound, not skill. I'd certainly rather hear Hendrix on extremely lousy gear than many gear fanatics with nothing to say, musically. But that's not the point.

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by Rotaholic

Well these guys would have clocked up more tube hours than most of us mere mortals could ever dream of and they just used the AXE FX on thier new album. Not my thing but sounds good

I remember reading he is into marshalls and matchless (also Mk3) and that he was hooking up with Carol-Ann for a signature amp ?

[Rotaholic]

Quoting Dan from the fractal site
Thanks everybody for the kind words. On the RL cd it was two Ultra's. I'm awaiting a few Axe 2's from Matt and Cliff for racking up and the touring cycles ahead (that hopefully won't stop). On the Anthrax reunion tours I was using my usual giant rigs, but going into iso cabs and in ears anyway with no live cabs so using the Axe Fx 2's live will be no different to me except it gives me the ability to have many amplifiers at my disposal and Obviously... better tones.

I might be playing Anthrax songs live so I can simply dial in my older tones (different amps) and then rip right over to the new tones for RL. I find that convenience simply groundbreaking for my needs. I have to cover a lot of ground.

In addition, Red Lamb is a new band just starting out so I must think about traveling to all ends of the world with rig 2 and rig 3 (fly rigs). I stole Dweezil's SKB shock rack ideas way back, but I've found a better model they sell that is 8 pounds less (his racks empty are 48 pounds leaving my 70 pound maximum Heathrow airport limit questionable). I'll post pics as I rack up for 'ya. I also have a sick new main rack.

As weird as this sounds it's just so hard to strip it down to what you REALLY need once you are fully in an Axe Fx. The old school mind set keeps making you buy extra stuff and then after a while you end going "Uh... don't need that one either" back in the big box it goes in storage. This is the hardest part of Axe ownership. Knowing all you really need is one black box. Its crazy. It's the new way and really is a revolution we are living in as guitarists. If you want to laugh I'm down to surfing the net for the coolest rack LIGHT !@ Arggg.. and now I'm going .. do I really need a light ? LOL... It weighs 1.2 pounds.

I can tell you that it has cured my severe O.C.D. a lot (regarding gear acquisition that is, only). I can get anything I need in the Axe.

Now Send me my Axe 2's or I'll...... :-)

He goes on to say

It was an incredible experience for me to work with Dave. He is a genius of musical composition. I learned so much from Dave. He is simply a blessing not only to me and my family, but for all of us who enjoy metal.

We are both creators of guitar riffs that transcend time and break new ground. I hope my return kind of stamps this into the new generation of players mindset and reflects upon the importance of songwriting. I don't know if the newer generation of fans of my genre know what Anthrax was and WHO it was at onset, who created not only the music, but the search for the guitar tones that did not exist yet. I couldn't find an amp that had the low end I heard in my head back then, the clarity in my head, the distinction of space between fast picked notes, and the punch in the face. You weren't going to get that in a Plexi. I worked with Marshall and Boogie with soldering guns to invent what was not. I'm the gear nerd and I also built all my past guitar rigs. Every cord and every program.

Now we all have the Axe Fx and find all we need to create new and unchartered territories by simply turning some dials. Sometimes I can't sleep thinking about the suffering I went through in the old days.

I also turned Dave onto the Axe Fx and programmed his units at Vic's Garage (his studio). That was also a lot of fun in the studio.

The mix is killer because I decided not to master the record,

in the sense of mastering houses that pummel the music into garbage. The mixes from Johnny K were already within a few db of ceiling and breathing so nice I would have hated to kill it. The guitars and all instruments just breathe a bit, they have separation and unity all at the same time. I hate the new mastering way of the louder guy wins. I like what I hear "in the studio". So I give my audience what I like because it's usually what they like. I kind of have a track record of not following the norm you know. The guitars have Caaaruunch ! Once converted to MP3's it's self mastered again anyway for 98% of what everyone listens to now. Why would anyone want to master three times unless you need drastic help in the E.Q. department ?

I also only tracked two guitar tracks. One left and One right. No piling 4 left and 4 right like the old days. I started doing that and it just killed what was in my head. All the spaces of music were gone. I think if you can play tight it just rips this way. Of course clean parts and harmonies I pile but only for tone / parametric e.q. and speaker split reasons. You know Vox left Dumble right harms up the middle maybe.

Space Is Music !!!!!

[Yuri Kogan]

Originally Posted by Rotaholic

Quoting Dan from the fractal site
Thanks everybody for the kind words. On the RL cd it was two Ultra's. I'm awaiting a few Axe 2's from Matt and Cliff for racking up and the touring cycles ahead (that hopefully won't stop). On the Anthrax reunion tours I was using my usual giant rigs, but going into iso cabs and in ears anyway with no live cabs so using the Axe Fx 2's live will be no different to me except it gives me the ability to have many amplifiers at my disposal and Obviously... better tones.

I might be playing Anthrax songs live so I can simply dial in my older tones (different amps) and then rip right over to the new tones for RL. I find that convenience simply groundbreaking for my needs. I have to cover a lot of ground.

In addition, Red Lamb is a new band just starting out so I must think about traveling to all ends of the world with rig 2 and rig 3 (fly rigs). I stole Dweezil's SKB shock rack ideas way back, but I've found a better model they sell that is 8 pounds less (his racks empty are 48 pounds leaving my 70 pound maximum Heathrow airport limit questionable). I'll post pics as I rack up for 'ya. I also have a sick new main rack.

As weird as this sounds it's just so hard to strip it down to what you REALLY need once you are fully in an Axe Fx. The old school mind set keeps making you buy extra stuff and then after a while you end going "Uh... don't need that one either" back in the big box it goes in storage. This is the hardest part of Axe ownership. Knowing all you really need is one black box. Its crazy. It's the new way and really is a revolution we are living in as guitarists. If you want to laugh I'm down to surfing the net for the coolest rack LIGHT !@ Arggg.. and now I'm going .. do I really need a light ? LOL... It weighs 1.2 pounds.

I can tell you that it has cured my severe O.C.D. a lot (regarding gear acquisition that is, only). I can get anything I need in the Axe.

Now Send me my Axe 2's or I'll...... :-)

He goes on to say

It was an incredible experience for me to work with Dave. He is a genius of musical composition. I learned so much from Dave. He is simply a blessing not only to me and my family, but for all of us who enjoy metal.

We are both creators of guitar riffs that transcend time and break new ground. I hope my return kind of stamps this into the new generation of players mindset and reflects upon the importance of songwriting. I don't know if the newer generation of fans of my genre know what Anthrax was and WHO it was at onset, who created not only the music, but the search for the guitar tones that did not exist yet. I couldn't find an amp that had the low end I heard in my head back then, the clarity in my head, the distinction of space between fast picked notes, and the punch in the face. You weren't going to get that in a Plexi. I worked with Marshall and Boogie with soldering guns to invent what was not. I'm the gear nerd and I also built all my past guitar rigs. Every cord and every program.

Now we all have the Axe Fx and find all we need to create new and unchartered territories by simply turning some dials. Sometimes I can't sleep thinking about the suffering I went through in the old days.

I also turned Dave onto the Axe Fx and programmed his units at Vic's Garage (his studio). That was also a lot of fun in the studio.

The mix is killer because I decided not to master the record,

in the sense of mastering houses that pummel the music into garbage. The mixes from Johnny K were already within a few db of ceiling and breathing so nice I would have hated to kill it. The guitars and all instruments just breathe a bit, they have separation and unity all at the same time. I hate the new mastering way of the louder guy wins. I like what I hear "in the studio". So I give my audience what I like because it's usually what they like. I kind of have a track record of not following the norm you know. The guitars have Caaaruunch ! Once converted to MP3's it's self mastered again anyway for 98% of what everyone listens to now. Why would anyone want to master three times unless you need drastic help in the E.Q. department ?

I also only tracked two guitar tracks. One left and One right. No piling 4 left and 4 right like the old days. I started doing that and it just killed what was in my head. All the spaces of music were gone. I think if you can play tight it just rips this way. Of course clean parts and harmonies I pile but only for tone / parametric e.q. and speaker split reasons. You know Vox left Dumble right harms up the middle maybe.

Space Is Music !!!!!

Understood
Marketing is such a great thing. But then we all went through a ohase of replacing bands with a midi rig. Except we didnt get payed for advertising the fact. The results are the same though. Lifeless boringnose like in that clip.

[beau_mckee]

Are people Here rexording their axe fx II digitally or back into pres?

[Joe Porto]

....

[gabe1331]

tone comes from the end of your fingers, and the end of a pick. Your equipment simply is used to give your abilities the best of your peaks. To many guitar players rely on their equipment. Best musicians are the practical easy to work with ones, sometimes that means using modeling instead of the half.

[Ryu]

Originally Posted by Chris Martins

His collabs with Amuro Namie are pretty sweet.

don't remember him doing anything with amuro. couldn't find anything about it on the internet, either. don't you mean nanase aikawa?

[laddie.music2]

Originally Posted by gabe1331

tone comes from the end of your fingers, and the end of a pick. Your equipment simply is used to give your abilities the best of your peaks. To many guitar players rely on their equipment. Best musicians are the practical easy to work with ones, sometimes that means using modeling instead of the half.

agreed,
but irrelevant IMHO

it's completely relative, a good player through modelling will sound as he does, and a good player through a real tube amp mic'd up will sound as he does.

It's peoples hobby to collect amps... if they get better with their tone through practice then great,

My point is, you cannot turn a digital amp into a real through tone in your fingers, you can improve it.

At the end of the day, real rock bands (not pop songs etc) like coldplay, foo fighters, black keys, white stripes etc... will never use a digital modeler for their rock songs,

For elements like N.E.R.D who uses a lot of guitar, yeah sure, but it hardly matters what they use, it's just background strums etc,

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by gabe1331

tone comes from the end of your fingers, and the end of a pick. ..

Ok! So tell me, if Hendrix played a Gibson, would it have sounded just like the Strat because it was Hendrix's fingers playing?

No? Really?

But I thought tone was all in the fingers?

[laddie.music2]

A lot of times people who own ibanez guitars, if that's their only guitar, it's good to believe that,
that way they can make their ibanez sound like a strat or gibson, through their pick

another time I hear the digital vs real amp thing a lot is from people who aren't part of the mixing crew who finalize higher end rock productions, it's one thing to think something sounds great or to please yourself in a studio...

But to get that into a mix and compete with classic rock songs... that's another ball game,

[mdme_sadie]

I'd say you need to spend some time with the kit involved to make an informed decision. I now have a Kemper Profiling Amp (I'll happily do some re-amping if anyone wants to hear what it sounds like with their guitar part through a particular rig), I've been fortunate enough to play some very nice tube amps too of the kinds that I like, JCM800, Plexi handwired reissue, Mesa Mark IIc, etc. So at least I've given it all a try.

I have to say that the Kemper to my ears holds up well. And at the very least you could do far worse if you were to simply consider it as another viable amp option. The if you'd have told me I'd be saying this a couple of years back I'd have laughed in your face, but things have really improved in that time.

And I fully agree with those who are saying that the bar for expectations has been lowered over time too (in general). The sound people are after now is one defined by mediocrity. However for me the Kemper sounds and plays like a great tube amp from any era. I can't say exactly how close it sounds and plays to the amps it's profiled, because I haven't played those specific amps and haven't heard them miced up as they were for profiling. Regardless of that it no longer sounds to me like a synth (as other amp sims do), but just like another guitar amp.

Now why is that important? Well, lets imagine that it's profiling is completely out of whack. It still sounds like a really nice amp. So effectively what you're getting is a really nice amp with a tonne of great tones (and even tweakability if you want it and are one of those people that like to mod your amps) and a hugely convenient form factor and set of I/O. If the thing ran on tubes would anyone even blink before buying it? I doubt it. That's the thing, it really does sound good (or as good as the profiles used). It may not be 100% there when it profiles for all I know (though those that have tried that part say it's pretty damn close), but it's close enough that it's just as musical an option as any other amp.

I really recommend anyone who's feeling disillusioned about the whole amp sim thing (which is understandable because almost all of them are total shit) should go and try one out, treat it as just another amp in a lunchbox format. Forget about what's in the box and just listen to what's in the tones.

I don't think that sims are the future in terms of "will we stop using tube amps completely?" but I do think they're the future in terms of being a really convenient additional option to tubes and solid state among amps. One that will be used in studios not just for convenience but when their sound is the one that fits the best in that production.

[laddie.music2]

I actually agree with you, the kemper is amazing, for a rock album final mix, due to the fact you can't model a room, that's a big part of the final sound of a good rock album, it's not really gonna do that,

But man, I totally agree that kemper sounds amazingly accurate in terms of it sounding liked what it was profiled off...


I'm thinking about getting one for ultra high gain stuff and elemental stuff, which Is what I use amplitube etc for now, so at least that stuff will get a good bump in quality

I was more talking about that airrr like on a good acdc back in black etc...

Room reverb isn't just reverb, the way the room rumbles, the way the cabinet shakes the room etc... it's not something I think that is really 'modellable' reverb has been around a long time, and even Bricasti can't get a direct modelled guitar amp to sit in a room like a properly mic'd up rig.


Anyways, long live Kemper I agree, he rocks

[Casey]

Originally Posted by laddie.music2

Room reverb isn't just reverb, the way the room rumbles, the way the cabinet shakes the room etc... it's not something I think that is really 'modellable' reverb has been around a long time, and even Bricasti can't get a direct modelled guitar amp to sit in a room like a properly mic'd up rig.

I will challenge you on that one.

Put up your best Dry and Wet wav files. I will match it. It's just a point of pride. Sorry for the OT post!



-Casey

[Doc Mixwell]

hahah, Casey the M7 is a truly gratifying sound, I must say. It has FANTASTIC tone, that is natural and really smooth. I found myself using it to create new sounds, and recording its effect right onto the track, as a part of it.

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke

Ok! So tell me, if Hendrix played a Gibson, would it have sounded just like the Strat because it was Hendrix's fingers playing?

No? Really?

But I thought tone was all in the fingers?

Well, when Hendrix tried my Black Widow guitar and I tried one of his four original "Burns of England" Strats, within a couple of minutes of messing with the amp controls, he still sounded exactly like Jimi Hendrix, while I, playing Jimi's Strat, sounded nothing like Hendrix.

And I DID hear Jimi with a Gibson, and he still sounded exactly like Jimi Hendrix.

[Casey]

HG's post put me in the mind of one of my favorite room sounds.

'Bridge of Sighs' ... the tape-op tells his tale

Is it possible that we could try to recreate that sound (if not the playing!)

A great test for the Kemper and the Bricasti. I would love it!



-Casey