Korean vocal sibilance??

[Big Wheels]

Any Korean engineers out there willing to offer me some advice? I'm a foreign engineer living in Korea.
I'm currently working with a singer who has very strong sibilance. I've tried numerous mic positioning techniques, pre amp combinations and gain staging. Any one who has recorded Korean vocals must know the hardships for sure, I've tried neve 1073's Manley and api's, u87 m149, rodes and a few others. I'm not compressing while tracking...but sometimes a couple of Db from a CL1b.

Regardless the only solution I've found works so for to smooth out the vocals is manually editing all the SSS,chh, kkk sibilances manually. Although effective....very time consuming.

Any Korean engineers out in GS land willing to offer me some insight on how they approach this issue? It would be much appreciated.

I'm looking for more efficient ways to work. Thanks again

B

PS: I have a new found respect for Korean engineers. Recording the English language compared to Korean is a joke!

[dbjp]

I'm in Japan, I know what you mean I think (though it's more the natural peakiness around the high mids that can be tough with the typical asian voice that I deal with eq).
Much easier recording western vocalists. Don't know whether that's because of the typically thinner voices or the differences in the nuances in sound different languages have when blending in with the music. Maybe a bit of both, maybe something else.
Anyway, most of the time I have the mic (in my case mostly U47 or Beesneez Phelicity, C12-ish 251-ish sound) above the singer pointed down so plosives and especially sibilance don't become an issue. But then this is a solution used around the world so I can't say that this is a unique solution for your specifics.

Gets a little more difficult when certain artists insist on close micing!

[DannyMac]

Have you tried using a ribbon mic - usually works a treat on a sibilant voice

[ShadowAMD]

I know it sounds daft but have you tried a de-esser on the vox? if in PT just use either the male or female preset.. People might slap there head on this, but it does a good job and hell if you don't like it just undo it

Used it on some Rode NT1's which were really sib mic's on some peep's.. Defo did the trick and it removes some of the harshness too.

[paul999]

I am a big fan of manual editing but I know when a budget is tight there just isn't the time. I'd be looking into a combination of de-essers, multiband compression and automation. With an extreme situation it will be rare to do all the heavy lifting with one piece of gear.

[cl-audio]

old school and super low-tech. But, mount a pencil vertically in the center of the mic with a rubber band. It really works.
i feel your pain, I mix a ton of japanese and korean projects, I know exactly what your talking about.
hope this helps,
Claudio

[aidyhall]

Some people just have a vicious "ss", white, black or Asian. Just the way their teeth are formed in their mouth. No microphone is gonna magically make it disappear without making the vocal sound dull. You can use a smoother mic', like a ribbon, but I've tended to find that when you brighten it, the "ss" comes back anyway.

De-essers are your friend! I use the Sonnox SupprEsser, and the Massey De-Esser, sometimes both. Set one lower at about 3kHz to catch the "ch" and "kk", and another higher at about 7-9kHz to get the "ss". Even then, you'll probably need to do some manual de-essing on the lead vocal.

Don't forget the BV's, which I tend to de-ess much more severely with the plugins, since I want to hear the lead's enunciation, and not a load of guff from the backing singers.

[Tomm]

Can someone explain the process for manually de-essing?

[u b k]

Derr Esser is king!


Gregory Scott - ubk

[HiFi Yeah]

Working on a lot of K-pop?

The mixes I've heard are very "tight digital sizzley", loads of energy, not at all dark. A different sound than western pop.

Any insight into current methods, perhaps less analog outboard use?

[ssprod19]

I've been working on a lot of Kpop lately, but fortunately for me, I just write the songs and let the engineers deal with mixing. I don't think it's a matter of Korean vs. non-Korean singers having more sibilance though. It's more of the singer and lyrics of the song... some just happen to be very ess-ey. For my own mixes, I try to ease off the compression going in, then use Waves De-esser, then EQ to taste. Usually works for me, and if doesn't, then I manually cut those ess-es and put them on another track and treat accordingly.

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by aidyhall

Some people just have a vicious "ss", white, black or Asian. Just the way their teeth are formed in their mouth. No microphone is gonna magically make it disappear without making the vocal sound dull. You can use a smoother mic', like a ribbon, but I've tended to find that when you brighten it, the "ss" comes back anyway.

De-essers are your friend! I use the Sonnox SupprEsser, and the Massey De-Esser, sometimes both. Set one lower at about 3kHz to catch the "ch" and "kk", and another higher at about 7-9kHz to get the "ss". Even then, you'll probably need to do some manual de-essing on the lead vocal.

Don't forget the BV's, which I tend to de-ess much more severely with the plugins, since I want to hear the lead's enunciation, and not a load of guff from the backing singers.

What mic was tracking the vocal mostly? u87ai? Because I experienced the same in Chinese pop with U87ai. But soon as I switch to Lawson 251, problem gone. Or if you want to stay with U87 then don't boost anything above 8k. As long u don't EQ the HF and don't over compress the vocal, u87 won't cause sibilant.
However if you want that bright powerful HF vocal , then u have to go for a 251 mic. (Telefunken 251 will do just right for this) u87 ain't the best for that purpose.

[Big Wheels]

Thanks for the responses everyone.
I'll try to comment on all of thee above.

I don't have a vintage u47...or an ELM251. Was going to get one earlier this year but bought some other goodies instead.

I have't tried a ribbon yet. But as someone else mentioned the same issues arise once it's compressed and EQ in a tasty manor.

Yes I I use a combination of de-essers. As well as sidechaining the problematic frequencies.

No it's not always a u87. More so the M149. And a couple of other utility mics.

I haven't tried the pencil thing but I know of it.

I am doing k-pop...as well as a lot of expat bands. This singer is the first singer I have ever had real problems with. He is very well known and a great singer.

At the end of the day I guess I was hoping one of you guys with experience working with Asian artist regularly would have some magic beans of wisdom they could impart on me.

I guess it's back to grinding out manual edits for me!

Again...thanks to all for taking the time to respond. Cheers!

B

[synthoid]

I've recorded lots of Mandarin singers and there are very strong sibilances in that language too. And they have to be balanced just right because they're an important part of how the language should sound (I'm told).

I've used an AT4080 (ribbon) to very good effect. It really does work well for this kind of singing, compression notwithstanding.

If using an LDC, keep it a little bit off-axis and maybe up above the singer's mouth just a bit, i.e., angled over the bridge of the nose, something like that.

The real answer though, in my case, is that I manually edit almost every single sibilance in the lead vocal track. With zoom up decently high, select right around the sibilance and pull it down with volume automation. I do it with automation instead of in a destructive editor because I so often need to adjust them.

I don't think de-essers work all that well for a lead vocal in this task. I mean, they attenuate the sibilance, but if you set them to keep artifacts inaudible then you still have to monkey around manually afterwards. If I use a de-esser it's often downstream of the edits, and I edit a bit more conservatively.

-synthoid

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by Big Wheels

Thanks for the responses everyone.
I'll try to comment on all of thee above.

I don't have a vintage u47...or an ELM251. Was going to get one earlier this year but bought some other goodies instead.

I have't tried a ribbon yet. But as someone else mentioned the same issues arise once it's compressed and EQ in a tasty manor.

Yes I I use a combination of de-essers. As well as sidechaining the problematic frequencies.

No it's not always a u87. More so the M149. And a couple of other utility mics.

I haven't tried the pencil thing but I know of it.

I am doing k-pop...as well as a lot of expat bands. This singer is the first singer I have ever had real problems with. He is very well known and a great singer.

At the end of the day I guess I was hoping one of you guys with experience working with Asian artist regularly would have some magic beans of wisdom they could impart on me.

I guess it's back to grinding out manual edits for me!

Again...thanks to all for taking the time to respond. Cheers!

B

Try place U87 upside down. I got huge improvement on sibilant when tracking this way too.