ANALOG SUMMING COMPARISON (this time its different)

[ajv205]

I've gone through the forums and no-one has done a test this way. What I found are tests involving crappy sounding source files (either unprocessed or just poorly processed), single elements of a song (i.e. just the vocals or something), or tests that one person did comparing ITB with the only summing box they have (frustratingly with similar poor source audio).

I think this test will be the most effective way thus far to compare the various summing mixers on the market and will more clearly show the sonic differences between them by using a set of controlled source audio files from an indie pop/rock ITB mix I just sent out for approval. I need the help of those who use a high-end summing mixer in their system to do this test.

The submixes I uploaded are what would be feeding a summing mixer if I were using one for this song. I also included the stereo ITB mix for reference. They are only 7 stereo submixes, so this should be an easy and quick test if you know what you're doing.

As for myself, I'm interested in hearing the Dangerous 2Bus (both the LT and the normal one), Inward Connections 690, Folcrom (both with a clean pre or a neve pre), Rascal Audio Tonebuss, Thermionic Little Bustard, Phoenix Nicerizer, SPL Mixdream (not the SP), Shadow Hills Equinox, Chandler Mini Rack, Manley 16x2.

Test rules to keep everything compatible for accurate comparison:
- We are interested in hearing ONLY what the mixer's circuitry is imparting on the sound.
- Do not convert the audio to a different resolution or bit depth. Make your session 24/48.
- List what your converter's calibration is. Mine are all at -16 = 0VU.
- List what converter you are using for the test.
- Output the stereo submixes from your DAW at unity gain. Do not add any processing whatsoever to the audio.
- Do not add any processing to the output of the summing mixer. Keep the mixer's output at unity gain.
- Go straight out of the mixer back into your DAW using whatever converter you use normally. If possible, it would be good to print the mix back in using an Aurora or Cranesong HEDD (no processing). That's what I use and my systems are fully calibrated to -16.
- If you're feeling saucy, on a separate pass go ahead and drive the mixer a bit harder so we can all hear what it sounds like when pushed.
- Do not add any loudness maximizing or additional processing to the final stereo audio file you printed from the mixer.
- Post your 24bit 48k WAV result back on this forum thread.

Download the 24bit 48k stereo WAV files here:
******//dl.dropbox.com/u/5120061/SUBM...R_SUM_TEST.zip

[jimmyboy7]

The file is too big for the forum limitations if done at 24 bit 48K

[ajv205]

Sorry about the file size. I edited the originals down to 8.5MB each. So your test result WAV will be ok now.

[jordanvoth]

I can give the tonebuss files. I work at 44.1 though.

[mu6gr8]

Hey ajv205,

Be aware that your rules don't account for certain variables like the Dangerous 2-Bus knocking down its inputs by 6 dB to allow for headroom. Thus, you may want to allow for level matching. (FYI the D2B does in fact have makeup gain, but with good gain-staging, you probably won't need it.)

Nonetheless, without control over how hard you hit the input of each line mixer, you won't be able to find & appreciate the sweet spot of each device. For example, the Chandler Ltd. rack mixer sounds very different to me with the output set to either 6.0, 6.5 or 7.0. You can pick which sound you like best for any given mix, and then color your mix by controlling how hard you hit the mixer. The D2B, on the other hand, is very transparent regardless of whatever you throw at it.

My point is that your endeavor is interesting, but you won't get the full effect until you personally experience mixing a tune into each box that interests you.

[ajv205]

mu6gr8,

I'd say then regarding the "hit it harder" test, add to taste and move on.

As for the Dangerous taking off 6db, thats why I asked for folks to cal their systems so that a tone at -16 from a stereo track going into two channels of the summing mixer panned hard left and right equals -16 on the input of the DAW when printing back from the mixer.

Couldn't also just press the +6db buttons on the Dangerous to get it back to unity?

Enough talk, lets hear some results!!

[guze]

is the Full mix ITB file a render?

[jimmyboy7]

Here is my summ through a dangerous 2buss LT

24 bit 48 K

Converters: Avid HD I/O 16

Calibrated at -18

Summed at unity gain

[Trakworx]

This is a nice idea for a test, but results will be misleading unless everyone uses the same DACs and ADCs, calibrated to the same level. Converters make a huge difference when summing analog, and they matter more than which summing mixer you use IME.

Good luck with the tests!

J~

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Trakworx

This is a nice idea for a test, but results will be misleading unless everyone uses the same DACs and ADCs, calibrated to the same level. Converters make a huge difference when summing analog, and they matter more than which summing mixer you use IME.

yeah its tough using different convertors. unfortunately the only way to really know whats up is using the same system to output the stems.

[bdangler]

What happened to that Vintage King summing mixer shootout? I can't find it on their site anymore. That one was pretty well done, I thought.

[YOHAMI]

subscribed, I want to see how this turns out

[drloop]

Originally Posted by Trakworx

This is a nice idea for a test, but results will be misleading unless everyone uses the same DACs and ADCs, calibrated to the same level. Converters make a huge difference when summing analog, and they matter more than which summing mixer you use IME.

Good luck with the tests!

J~

I made some tests summing ITB and summing thru cheap ADDA.
The reason for the test was to understand if I could use cheap ADDA to use together with outboards.
In the example below I mixed ITB summing and the summing of cheap ADDA, it is very hard to hear a difference. What you hear is ITB mix and the same music passed thru M-Audio 2496 ADDA, random playback, 14 channels is summed.

******//dl.dropbox.com/u/6897056/in_b...igi_vs_ana.wav

I do not want to start a debate but I am sure that people who own summingmixer also will have decent ADDA, 44 or 48kHz should not be any problems if SSL or Lynx does not color more then the M-Audio 2496

I am looking forward to listen to this test.

[u b k]

If I did this with my Nicerizer and Metric Halo a/d, api a2d, and Burl B2, you'd think I used 3 different summing boxes. And aside from that, you'd have no idea what the sound of the Nicerizer is.

It's not a popular position with some here on the forum, but imho converters are huge and they all have a color of their own, even the uber-spendy transparent ones sound different from each other.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[YOHAMI]

I guess everyone doing this test should post what converters they are using, and maybe an ITB summing passed through the converters as well.

[down_town]

Hello
Here is mine. Not a really high end setup.

Fireface 400 to Dangerous D-Box.
******//dl.dropbox.com/u/3997116/Sum%20Test%201.wav

Bonus files.

Fireface 400 to Dangerous D-Box to Fatso.(Tranny On/in 5/out 5/Linked)
******//dl.dropbox.com/u/3997116/Sum%...o%20Tranny.wav

Fireface 400 to Dangerous D-Box to Fatso.(Buss comp/in 5/out 5/warmth 2/Linked) About 2-3db GR. Around 3db on warmth circuit.
******//dl.dropbox.com/u/3997116/Sum%...sto%20Buss.wav

Cheers
D

[drloop]

Thank you down town.

I did a file with the ITB mix and your Dang D summed file.
******//dl.dropbox.com/u/6897056/itb_vs_dang_d.wav

I made som cuts so sometimes it is ITB and sometimes it is dang D mix.

Not a dramatic difference one could say.

[drloop]

Compared the JimmyBoy7 Dang D and Avid converters to the ITB mix.

Again, sometimes ITB sometimes the analog summed song.

******//dl.dropbox.com/u/6897056/db2_avid16.wav

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by ajv205

I also included the stereo ITB mix for reference. They are only 7 stereo submixes, so this should be an easy and quick test if you know what you're doing.

Is the stereo ITB mix really just a pure ITB summing? What platform did you use? I ask because it is quite different than summing with Logic.

Edit: I attached one mix summed in Logic with just a 24bit dither from the Sonnox Limiter on the stereo bus plus your original ITB summed mix. To me the Logic mix has slightly more wide and depth, so I'm really curious what paltform you used.

[Trakworx]

Originally Posted by drloop

I do not want to start a debate but I am sure that people who own summingmixer also will have decent ADDA,

Sorry to debate, but that is a big assumption.

Originally Posted by drloop

44 or 48kHz should not be any problems if SSL or Lynx does not color more then the M-Audio 2496

Really, there are audible differences between different "decent" converters. That is precisely why we have so many posts and threads about converters, no?

[Reborn]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Is the stereo ITB mix really just a pure ITB summing? What platform did you use? I ask because it is quite different than summing with Logic.

Edit: I attached one mix summed in Logic with just a 24bit dither from the Sonnox Limiter on the stereo bus plus your original ITB summed mix. To me the Logic mix has slightly more wide and depth, so I'm really curious what paltform you used.

Probably. Logic is a colored platform. It becomes very obvious when you record stero wavs of commercial releases say from itunes or internet radio, CD even. The files will usually sound heavier in the bottom and wider on playback from monitoring the original recording. I have had people say it added something nice. However if the original being recorded already had enough bass or width, it doesn't end up flattering the audio!

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by u b k

If I did this with my Nicerizer and Metric Halo a/d, api a2d, and Burl B2, you'd think I used 3 different summing boxes. And aside from that, you'd have no idea what the sound of the Nicerizer is.

It's not a popular position with some here on the forum, but imho converters are huge and they all have a color of their own, even the uber-spendy transparent ones sound different from each other.


Gregory Scott - ubk

+1.
I'm using apogees and the atomic clock.the next guy might be using RME or lynx,etc..
they are all different.

[pazmusik]

Would anyone like to hear the track through this unit?

paz

[57junior]

Originally Posted by pazmusik

Would anyone like to hear the track through this unit?

paz

yes!! i would!

[pazmusik]

Originally Posted by 57junior

yes!! i would!

Very well. It will be done.

paz

[John Suitcase]

I'd say that, aside from the obvious discrepancies with converters, the biggest issue is just that mixing into any particular setup is going to change how you mix. If you're using a summing box with some coloration, you might make different mix decisions than you would working ITB. So taking a mix done one way, and processing it another way isn't a 'fair fight' so to speak. Just as you'd mix differently if you have a compressor on the two buss from early in the process, as opposed to taking a finished mix and adding a compressor.

But it's still interesting to hear the differences...

[57junior]

Originally Posted by pazmusik

Very well. It will be done.

paz

thanks man! that unit is very intriguing.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I'd say that, aside from the obvious discrepancies with converters, the biggest issue is just that mixing into any particular setup is going to change how you mix. If you're using a summing box with some coloration, you might make different mix decisions than you would working ITB. So taking a mix done one way, and processing it another way isn't a 'fair fight' so to speak. Just as you'd mix differently if you have a compressor on the two buss from early in the process, as opposed to taking a finished mix and adding a compressor.

But it's still interesting to hear the differences...

Precisely why this is a pointless exercise. Mildly interesting maybe, but ultimately useless....

[down_town]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I'd say that, aside from the obvious discrepancies with converters, the biggest issue is just that mixing into any particular setup is going to change how you mix. If you're using a summing box with some coloration, you might make different mix decisions than you would working ITB. So taking a mix done one way, and processing it another way isn't a 'fair fight' so to speak. Just as you'd mix differently if you have a compressor on the two buss from early in the process, as opposed to taking a finished mix and adding a compressor.

But it's still interesting to hear the differences...

I found this out when I got my Dbox(Even bigger different when you start integrating buss compressors like the fatso etc). You really need to mix with it in place from the start. I found some of the more electronic based projects I was working on at the mixes fell apart a little when just splitting the tracks out. Acoustic instrument based tracks less so.

Precisely why this is a pointless exercise. Mildly interesting maybe, but ultimately useless....

It is interesting to here different setups in action. And here first hand reports from the users.

I question to the guys on here with summing rigs - have you compared multiple pairs of summing to just a stereo pair on you rigs?
cheers

[chavernac]

There are lots of videos that explain in details how the Dangerous music analog summing boxes work at this website: PUREMIX