Mic/Pre setup for Metal drum tracking

[thesandbox]

After moving to northern IL last year after 9 years in Nashville I have finally come to tracking a true metal band for the first time starting next Friday. I have read through a number of threads and am comfortable going in but just want to get an overall opinion on mic/pre setup/combos for drums as everyone's arsenal is just a bit different. I also have SD 2 with most expansions and Slate Trigger EX to augment kick/sn or toms as needed to their taste.

Here is my mic cabinet..
AKG 451 EB (older version)
Audio Technica ATM25
Beyer M160- ribbon (2)
Beyer 201
Blue Bluebird
CAD M177
EV N/D868
MXL V69 - tube
Peluso 2247 - tube
Sennheiser MD 421-U5 - (3) (1 cream and 2 black matched pair)
Shure SM7-B
Shure SM 57 (2)

Here are my pres....
API 512c (4)
BAE 1023 (2)
Sytek (8) w/Burr Brown op amps on 4 channels
Great River ME-NV1
Joe Meek VC1 - the "Brick" (2)
Focusrite Green

His setup....pic below
1 Bass Drum
2 Snares (one main, one side piccolo snare)
2 Mounted Toms
2 Floor Toms
4 Crash Cymbals
3 China Cymbals
2 Splash Cymbals
1 Ride Cymbal
1 Zil-Bell
1 Set of Hi Hats

My plan....
K in - ATM25 into BAE 1023....gets more of the click with option to EQ
K out - EV N/D868 into BAE 1023
Sn top - Beyer M201 into API
Sn side/btm - SM57 into Great River
Rack toms - Black 421-U5's into Sytek w/Burr Browns
Floor toms - 1 421 and 1 CAD 177 into APIs
OH's - Beyer M160's into Sytek clean channels
Piccolo sn - SM7 into API...unless we overdub this
Ride - AKG 451EB into Sytek
HH - Blue Bluebird into Sytek....worried a bit about bleed if I really need to use it though
Room - MXL V69 into Stytek w/Burr Brown

Other outboard gear I can use use going in....
Distressor
1176
2 opto comps on the JM Bricks
FMR stereo comp

Thoughts...changes...suggestions....
Thanks,
Matt

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by thesandbox

After moving to northern IL last year after 9 years in Nashville I have finally come to tracking a true metal band for the first time starting next Friday. I have read through a number of threads and am comfortable going in but just want to get an overall opinion on mic/pre setup/combos for drums as everyone's arsenal is just a bit different. I also have SD 2 with most expansions and Slate Trigger EX to augment kick/sn or toms as needed to their taste.

Here is my mic cabinet..
AKG 451 EB (older version)
Audio Technica ATM25
Beyer M160- ribbon (2)
Beyer 201
Blue Bluebird
CAD M177
EV N/D868
MXL V69 - tube
Peluso 2247 - tube
Sennheiser MD 421-U5 - (3) (1 cream and 2 black matched pair)
Shure SM7-B
Shure SM 57 (2)

Here are my pres....
API 512c (4)
BAE 1023 (2)
Sytek (8) w/Burr Brown op amps on 4 channels
Great River ME-NV1
Joe Meek VC1 - the "Brick" (2)
Focusrite Green

His setup....pic below
1 Bass Drum
2 Snares (one main, one side piccolo snare)
2 Mounted Toms
2 Floor Toms
4 Crash Cymbals
3 China Cymbals
2 Splash Cymbals
1 Ride Cymbal
1 Zil-Bell
1 Set of Hi Hats

My plan....
K in - ATM25 into BAE 1023....gets more of the click with option to EQ
K out - EV N/D868 into BAE 1023
Sn top - Beyer M201 into API
Sn side/btm - SM57 into Great River
Rack toms - Black 421-U5's into Sytek w/Burr Browns
Floor toms - 1 421 and 1 CAD 177 into APIs
OH's - Beyer M160's into Sytek clean channels
Piccolo sn - SM7 into API...unless we overdub this
Ride - AKG 451EB into Sytek
HH - Blue Bluebird into Sytek....worried a bit about bleed if I really need to use it though
Room - MXL V69 into Stytek w/Burr Brown

Other outboard gear I can use use going in....
Distressor
1176
2 opto comps on the JM Bricks
FMR stereo comp

Thoughts...changes...suggestions....
Thanks,
Matt

If it's metal,
You gotta need UA 1176 for sure. Only UA's give the punch of metal. (especially the punch of snare and kick) MC77 or Mohog is more gudge Nashville sound. ( warmer but softer)
And also try the neve 1073 Pre , it works on metal very well too.

[thesandbox]

Yes...the BAE's are 1073's with a couple added eq points....I only have one UA 1176...would it be better on the in or out mic? I might use the Brick on the other and the Distressor on the snare....and the FMR lightly on the OH's to just help bring out any cymbal work he might do.

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by jcc449

If it's metal,
You gotta need UA 1176 for sure. Only UA's give the punch of metal. (especially the punch of snare and kick) MC77 or Mohog is more gudge Nashville sound. ( warmer but softer)
And also try the neve 1073 Pre , it works on metal very well too.

So much wrong in so little words.. That hurts. It's wronv.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Gearslutz.com

[George Necola]

Originally Posted by thesandbox

Yes...the BAE's are 1073's with a couple added eq points....I only have one UA 1176...would it be better on the in or out mic? I might use the Brick on the other and the Distressor on the snare....and the FMR lightly on the OH's to just help bring out any cymbal work he might do.

You are going to samplereplace it anyway? Then it doesnt matter. I would introduce a single mono room mic and squash it.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Gearslutz.com

[thesandbox]

Only going to sample/trigger if needed as I usually get the sound I am after but I know the band has already mentioned the one thing they did not like about their ep's were the sound of the kick....from what he described it was the more modern sound so I am sure we will mix to taste. I think I listed a mono room mic in the post and I am really after specific mic/pre combos from what I listed....

[bakerman]

I'd use one 1023 for the kick (out) other for the snare. swap it to API for the kick in.

[NoisyNarrowBand]

wow - serious setup there! you should get great sounds with this. only recommendations I'd have is mono-room or overhead as already suggested and to make sure to records snare and bd-sounds clean for sampling.

other than that - snare top api+57 or api+421 would be by choice. a bit conservative maybe but I do digg the sound.

[eleo]

Metal productions these days is all about the clarity of the tone.

I think you have a decent set up,
but if you can,
grab as many API`s as you can get for all heads.

Love 1073 on kick though...

I think an aggressive mids and punch is what metal is most about these days...

Check bleed on the mics (esp. toms, hang those crash high!!)

Make sure, that hihat wont kill on the overheads.


Resample kicks and Snare with
original sample (Tune those heads :-)) and maybe some of a good library (combine?)
and tell the drummer to simply beat the s..t out his kit.

Beat Detective and off you go.

Have fun!

[ARIEL]

You have a great arsenal of stuff . I personally would use a SM57 on the snare . I have gone through many mics and snares - I always end up using the 57 For clarity try and get all the cymbals and hats with a stereo OH pair . You will find that you most likely wont need to pull up the hi hat mic . If He has his cymbals only a foot higher than the hat . Ride spot mic for sure . If they dont want the modern metal click Kick then . Maybe use a D112 or take some samples of it with that mic as well as D6 . To get The kick for more of a natural tone would be multisample everything . But with the same velocity so as it wont have any dips in the mix. I alos throw on moon gels for the toms to tighten them up . worked great on my last 2 recordings and wont have to sample replace them try and get all your tom mics the same . SSL stuff is great for punch and clarity the black faced stuff or even waves/UAD SSL is great . Or just use your BAE EQ's . The Key to not having to sample replace is a drummer that can hit consistently and hard as well as be able to tune his kit perfectly . If not then it wont sound that good this is half the tone , the other half is the right pres and mics .

[MickeyMassacre]

I am pretty much with you, but why not the Peluso on the kick out? Maybe build a tunnel for it.

Does the drummer trigger live? if he does it can never hurt to get a midi feed or something to add a bit of that in.

[jonathan jetter]

Originally Posted by jcc449

If it's metal,
You gotta need UA 1176 for sure. Only UA's give the punch of metal. (especially the punch of snare and kick) MC77 or Mohog is more gudge Nashville sound. ( warmer but softer)
And also try the neve 1073 Pre , it works on metal very well too.

this here above is not accurate.

to the OP- you should be fine with your gear.

i'm not sure you'll need or want the "kick out" mic. maybe put the 868 on floor tom instead?

also not sure the mono room sound will prove useful. it depends on the kind of metal. you may want to track it, though, in order to get a different drum sound for quieter sections

i'm not sure the Beyers will give the desired sound for the overhead mics in this genre. in fact, given the amount of cymbals, i might take your condensers and spot mic the cymbals (or, rather, group 2 or 3 cymbals to one mic)- something like 4 mics over the kit, but spaced out from each other and very close to the cymbals. then suck out all the lows/low mids as well as any 3khz-4khz harshness.

expect to use a lot of EQ as well as some samples come mix time.

[thesandbox]

Good stuff so far....exactly what I am looking for as its helping to re-affirm ideas I am thinking about as well.

[thesandbox]

Well....just to follow up a bit here. We got drums tracked for all 11 songs yesterday with a scratch guitar and then went back today and got all the 1st guitars double tracked for all 11 as well. Everything went smoother than expected. The guitarist actually played with the click and the drummer followed him and worked really good for them. Over half were done in one or two takes with the others just a few sections punched or a matter of finding the groove as on one or two we just decided the pocket sat better without trying to adhere to the click from section to section....anyway here is what I finally went with on the kit after putting the mics in the room this week with some program material just a/b'ing for frequency response...mostly trying to figure toms, room and kick....

1. K in- E/V 868 into Great River
2. K out - MXLV69 about 2-3 feet out tunneled into BAE1023
3. Sn top - Beyer 201 into BAE1023
4. Sn btm - 57 into Joe Meek Brick VC1
5. HH - 421 grey into sytek (this mic seems to have lost some mojo over the years that I did not notice until the compartitive listening mentioned..so it was relegated here.)
6. Ride - 451eb into sytek w/Burr Brown - perfect!
7. T1 - 421 into API512
8. T2 - 421 into API512
9. T3 - CADM177 into API512 (this mic matched the older black 421 the closest)
10 T4 - SM7 into API512 (as above with a bit more lows)
11 OH L - Beyer M160 into Sytek
12 OH R - Beyer M160 into Sytek
13 Room - Peluso 2247 into Sytek with Burr Brown
14 Side snare - ATM25 into Joe Meek Brick #2

Guitarist used his amp head (Peavey Valve King 100)...his effects came out of a Behringer V-amp and his cab had older speakers so we went into my Palmer PDI-03 and then into a mix of the BAE1023, API and Sytek, into either Distressor for one track or 1176 for the other switching setting on the PDI-03 as well just to get some different tones and this actually seemed to work really well. The guitarist was literally able to double his tracks to a "T". A delay doubler at 6ms couldn't have been more on and we were able to get the seperate tones.

If I have some extra time yet tonight or tomorrow I will try to post a few of the takes.

[Matt@Oracle.]

Looks great! Depending on the type of band however, I'd take a listen to their references and take notice to how hyper edited they are. I only really work with metal and hardcore bands and the prospect of being able to keep scratch guitars is just amazing to me, maybe this guy can actually really play! Unfortunately its the expectation of a lot of these bands that you are going to take all the performances to the next level and beyond, however judging by that drummers set up, these guys look professional!

[thesandbox]

sorry...no, we didn't keep the scratch guitars...we went back to and did doubles of all his parts today....he kinda played both guitar player parts on the scratch track as he knows them both. But yes in the end I was pleased and so were they as we did discuss some of what they were looking for as far as sounds...i.e. kick etc... They have been trying to record some of this stuff for a few years now but never get very far as they have tried to do it with friends or on the cheap...or cheaper I should say. So far for two days they have walked out with smiles on their faces and think things are better already. Always great to start off on a good foot. Cheers

[Matt@Oracle.]

Great to hear! I'd love to hear the finished product when its done!

[thesandbox]

pulled up the first track really quick.....drums with the first guitarists part double panned l and r...no edits...no effects...except the light compression on the guitars going in....by the way...the last band I played in down in Nashville, Eight Days Later, our vocalist and guitar player was from Perth... Brett Swayn.
This was us... Eight Days Later - ENTER

Matt Barber
Sandbox Productions - Recording Studio Rockford, IL

[Whospilgrim]

We got a great kick from a beta 52 into a Blue Robbie. Also used 2 omni mics buried in the kit. Unorthodox for metal but really got a great sound from the snare. Bright cymbals too.

If you're interested in hearing a taste go here:

Deadmensrequiem.com

Find the audio sample for The Flow. I did those raw recordings. Mixed at MansionAudio in NY.

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by thesandbox

After moving to northern IL last year after 9 years in Nashville I have finally come to tracking a true metal band for the first time starting next Friday. I have read through a number of threads and am comfortable going in but just want to get an overall opinion on mic/pre setup/combos for drums as everyone's arsenal is just a bit different. I also have SD 2 with most expansions and Slate Trigger EX to augment kick/sn or toms as needed to their taste.

Here is my mic cabinet..
AKG 451 EB (older version)
Audio Technica ATM25
Beyer M160- ribbon (2)
Beyer 201
Blue Bluebird
CAD M177
EV N/D868
MXL V69 - tube
Peluso 2247 - tube
Sennheiser MD 421-U5 - (3) (1 cream and 2 black matched pair)
Shure SM7-B
Shure SM 57 (2)

Here are my pres....
API 512c (4)
BAE 1023 (2)
Sytek (8) w/Burr Brown op amps on 4 channels
Great River ME-NV1
Joe Meek VC1 - the "Brick" (2)
Focusrite Green

His setup....pic below
1 Bass Drum
2 Snares (one main, one side piccolo snare)
2 Mounted Toms
2 Floor Toms
4 Crash Cymbals
3 China Cymbals
2 Splash Cymbals
1 Ride Cymbal
1 Zil-Bell
1 Set of Hi Hats

My plan....
K in - ATM25 into BAE 1023....gets more of the click with option to EQ
K out - EV N/D868 into BAE 1023
Sn top - Beyer M201 into API
Sn side/btm - SM57 into Great River
Rack toms - Black 421-U5's into Sytek w/Burr Browns
Floor toms - 1 421 and 1 CAD 177 into APIs
OH's - Beyer M160's into Sytek clean channels
Piccolo sn - SM7 into API...unless we overdub this
Ride - AKG 451EB into Sytek
HH - Blue Bluebird into Sytek....worried a bit about bleed if I really need to use it though
Room - MXL V69 into Stytek w/Burr Brown

Other outboard gear I can use use going in....
Distressor
1176
2 opto comps on the JM Bricks
FMR stereo comp

Thoughts...changes...suggestions....
Thanks,
Matt

I know audio gears are the focus for this forum....but with this topic I think I have to tell u this:

Drum recording, the no1 key factor has to be right "drum set".
Especially with metal music, you gotta have the right snare drum and kick. Snare has to be either Steel snare or Brass snare. Last session I did , a new York "Nashville-taste" guy insist to use wood snare for metal and it turns out to be joke at mixing stage. He was like "what's wrong?" " I told him, this is not metal drum ; this is country rock."
Kick has to be big and deep enough instead those tiny home studio kit. With the right metal kits, you can easily have a good outcome in mixing stage without any trigger at all. Please, be aware of this: "no jazz, funk, country rock kits for metal music" you would end up have louder High hat than snare all time.
One more thing; don't use any compressor while tracking- the "genius " new York nashville guy insert a La2a on my snare without notify me first and it end the snare track sound just like a room mic.
Never ever do that!

[thesandbox]

Just thought I would update this thread I as am starting to get close on some mixes for this project. Attached one here...any comments or questions are welcomed.