Plug In's vs Rack Gear

[jimmyboy7]

I am doing some research, I started an earlier poll that had some problems and may have tainted the data, it definitely excluded some of the participants. So, after getting some good feedback form fellow slutz I am re-launching the survey. Plain and simple, what percentage of the time do you use plug in's when working. The reason is to find out and possibly predict how long it will be before digital completely replaces analog gear if at all possible. In fact it may not be in the foreseeable future but I would like to calculate if possible. Your participation will be greatly appreciated and I will post results and predictions after completing my analysis.

[drBill]

Jimmy - to clarify exactly what you're looking for : What percentage of TIME is spent with plugins, OR, what percentage of my work is done with plug-ins? Those are two very different things and they are two completely different answers for me, as I'm almost always using SOME kind of plugin, but not exclusively in leiu of hardware. So time - 100%. Percentage of work - something less.

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by drBill

Jimmy - to clarify exactly what you're looking for : What percentage of TIME is spent with plugins, OR, what percentage of my work is done with plug-ins? Those are two very different things and they are two completely different answers for me, as I'm almost always using SOME kind of plugin, but not exclusively in leiu of hardware. So time - 100%. Percentage of work - something less.

Percentage of work, I took into consideration that tracking (for me) is completely analog, eq, compression etc. Mixing about 50/50. So I fall
Into the 20-30% group right now. Does that help? The main thing I an trying to determine us what percentage of the work plug ins can conceivably do for most professionals.

[drBill]

Well, I think CONCEIVABLY they can do 90-100% of the work. But that doesn't mean we'll use them 100% of the time.

[jcc449]

Ya I experienced the differences after I A/B/C UA1176 vs Mofet 1176 vs UAD 1176.
The difference is the punchiness and warmness.
punch meter: UA 1176 > Mohog > UAD .
Warm meter : Mohog > UA1176 > UAD.

[Bassmankr]

You have a flawed prediction to begin with as I doubt digital will ever completely replace analog. Some of the most coveted audio gear is tube stuff from the 50's and 60's. We all would be using it if it weren't for availability and price. That analog gear will never be replaced and the few that own it will use it. The same with a long list of other premium analog gear, if you can afford it you will probably be using it as the sonics beat digital to this date in time. Something else that can't be predicted is whether consumers will ever again want good sonics, this could be like fashion and come around in the future or just stay as it is now, what ever sounds good enough for the price I want to pay. So outside of providing marketing data for some plug makers I don't see how the results of this poll would provide any solid evidence that analog will ever be dead. Guys that can afford analog get it and if there is any trend forming its the ITB guys picking up some analog outboard as they can afford it (you can easily make that prediction from just reading the threads here over the last two years).

[T.Johannsson]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

You have a flawed prediction to begin with as I doubt digital will ever completely replace analog. Some of the most coveted audio gear is tube stuff from the 50's and 60's. We all would be using it if it weren't for availability and price. That analog gear will never be replaced and the few that own it will use it. The same with a long list of other premium analog gear, if you can afford it you will probably be using it as the sonics beat digital to this date in time. Something else that can't be predicted is whether consumers will ever again want good sonics, this could be like fashion and come around in the future or just stay as it is now, what ever sounds good enough for the price I want to pay. So outside of providing marketing data for some plug makers I don't see how the results of this poll would provide any solid evidence that analog will ever be dead. Guys that can afford analog get it and if there is any trend forming its the ITB guys picking up some analog outboard as they can afford it (you can easily make that prediction from just reading the threads here over the last two years).

This is not 100% true 100% of the time. Price in not always the reason for ITB mixing. Some studios have an Avid Icon and mix 100% in the box. Thats not because the can afford the hardware. Quick recalls is one of many reason why people are mixing itb. Sometimes thats is big factor for a studio to switch between session in a second.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by T.Johannsson

This is not 100% true 100% of the time. Price in not always the reason for ITB mixing. Some studios have an Avid Icon and mix 100% in the box. Thats not because the can afford the hardware. Quick recalls is one of many reason why people are mixing itb. Sometimes thats is big factor for a studio to switch between session in a second.

That is my main reason. I have a large automated console, outboard, etc. But I also use PTHD, and end up mixing ITB or "Hybrid" most of the time. But that doesn't mean I'm selling my console and outboard.....

[dxavier]

Originally Posted by drBill

That is my main reason. I have a large automated console, outboard, etc. But I also use PTHD, and end up mixing ITB or "Hybrid" most of the time. But that doesn't mean I'm selling my console and outboard.....

Agreed. Although Recall has nothing to do with sound quality, it is a serious plus point for plugins, even if you have the budget for hardware.

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

You have a flawed prediction to begin with as I doubt digital will ever completely replace analog. Some of the most coveted audio gear is tube stuff from the 50's and 60's. We all would be using it if it weren't for availability and price. That analog gear will never be replaced and the few that own it will use it. The same with a long list of other premium analog gear, if you can afford it you will probably be using it as the sonics beat digital to this date in time. Something else that can't be predicted is whether consumers will ever again want good sonics, this could be like fashion and come around in the future or just stay as it is now, what ever sounds good enough for the price I want to pay. So outside of providing marketing data for some plug makers I don't see how the results of this poll would provide any solid evidence that analog will ever be dead. Guys that can afford analog get it and if there is any trend forming its the ITB guys picking up some analog outboard as they can afford it (you can easily make that prediction from just reading the threads here over the last two years).

Awesome comment!!! I agree (and I hope you are correct) I would love to prove the null hypothesis in this case. I am trying to plan to make my business prepared for the future.

[Musiclab]

I think if your not in the commercial or post business then quick recalls are not such a big deal. Most who mix by the song rather than by the hour get nailed with more recalls. For me I use some sample playback plug ins and on rare occasion will use some of the PSP plugs. But for 99.9 % of my audio processing, I use hardware

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

I think if your not in the commercial or post business then quick recalls are not such a big deal.

I am not in either business and recalls are HUGELY important for me. For Creativity, for smooth Work Flow, for Client needs, and for overall speed.

Without recall, I don't think I could earn enough to live. Hence, recall being perhaps the most important aspect of my studio over tube/tape/plug-ins/console/monitoring/vintage mics or any other aspect of studio life - all of which I love and deem important.

It's a brave new world, and when recall becomes the de facto standard, it's expected and necessary and changes how you work. I CAN (but choose not to) work solely with plug-ins and earn a good living. I CAN'T go back to working how I did in 1985-1995 and earn a living, no matter how desperately I miss it and wish we could return to that methodology.

That's a #1 factor of importance. Survival of the fittest. I know it's selfish of me, but I still want to eat next week.....

[TheBankInc]

I never would have imagined that easy recalls would have replaced sound quality and tone in order of importance when I was learning the art in the early 90's.
That would have been blasphemous and I would have probably lost my job for being lazy
I guess I feel the 15 minutes is worth it and I wonder why ITB engineers have to recall mixes so many times?
I'm just saying....

[TheBankInc]

What ever happened to "just charge more" or are we all turning into fast food restaurants?

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by drBill

I am not in either business and recalls are HUGELY important for me. For Creativity, for smooth Work Flow, for Client needs, and for overall speed.

Without recall, I don't think I could earn enough to live. Hence, recall being perhaps the most important aspect of my studio over tube/tape/plug-ins/console/monitoring/vintage mics or any other aspect of studio life - all of which I love and deem important.

It's a brave new world, and when recall becomes the de facto standard, it's expected and necessary and changes how you work. I CAN (but choose not to) work solely with plug-ins and earn a good living. I CAN'T go back to working how I did in 1985-1995 and earn a living, no matter how desperately I miss it and wish we could return to that methodology.

That's a #1 factor of importance. Survival of the fittest. I know it's selfish of me, but I still want to eat next week.....

excellent point about the importance of workflow. The differences in how one can get around on a DAW, or micpre or anything, often make a larger difference than the actual sound of the unit.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by TheBankInc

I never would have imagined that easy recalls would have replaced sound quality and tone in order of importance when I was learning the art in the early 90's.
That would have been blasphemous and I would have probably lost my job for being lazy
I guess I feel the 15 minutes is worth it and I wonder why ITB engineers have to recall mixes so many times?
I'm just saying....

My #1 reason is creativity. That's prime #1 for me. I can't live without recalls anymore. I can write 10 pieces of music in an afternoon now. I could not do that before. I can close out a mix and go to another project when I start to burn out - I couldn't do that before. Over the years, I have found it hard to put this into words, but a recent interview with Greg Wells said it so well for me :

Greg said that his REALLY creative period only lasts an hour or so. After that, it heads downhill. (My paraphrase) When he recently produced Burt Bacharach he asked him the secret to his writing regime. Burt replied - I only write for 2-3 minutes at a time, then leave and go do something else. After 2-3 minutes I can't keep the creativity at the highest level that I want. (Again, my paraphrase - sorry Greg).

And after hearing Greg lay it out so logically and simply, the light bulb went on for me. It's something that I have intrinsically known for 30 years. When you first approach a mix, a song, a vocal, a solo - an overdub - whatever - you are freshest and that's when the MAGIC (not the "work") happens. It's why I am ALWAYS in record.

I'm all about capturing, recreating, and putting out as much magic as I can jam into the music I am working on. Recall affords me that reality. Hardware does not. Hardware almost always sounds better, but it is another veil between me and the elusive living and fleeting spirit of music. You'll even notice lots of big name mixers who mix with TONS of outboard - leaving various pieces with exact settings and not changing them. For instance, always having an 1176 patched into a particular EQ for bass, and never changing those pieces. Just making sure the gain staging on the console is right before hitting those pieces. In effect, making "recall" easier with their analog gear. Unfortunately, that takes several hundred thousand bucks worth of gear to do, and that's not in the cards for most of us.

Creativity. It is #1 for me. Recall-ability affords me PERSPECTIVE. And a fresh perspective is the #1 tool that I use to conjour up, grab and tame the creative muse.

It's not about lazyness. It's not about shortcuts. It's all about grabbing that elusive muse when it is so vain and fickle.

If I have to work on a song on the console (and yes, I have a big-ass automated one with lots of nice outboard), and before I want to, I'll have to tear down and go to the next song. At that point, the muse has left the building......and it's not coming back no matter how hard you try and how much you want to believe.

TOTAL recall, not the old SSL-style "reset the hundreds of knobs" recall has completely re-energized and recharged the way I write / mix / produce. I'm not saying everyone has to feel the way I do, but it has changed my life for the better. (In most ways. In others there is a downside, but I will live with that for the luxury of creativity.)

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by drBill

My #1 reason is creativity. That's prime #1 for me. I can't live without recalls an I'm not saying everyone has to feel the way I do, but it has changed my life for the better. (In most ways. In others there is a downside, but I will live with that for the luxury of creativity.)

I am totally with you on the muse aspect. Some of the greates moments I have experienced were spontaneous creation in the control room. My last big project was great, in one sone the lead vocalist came out of the booth and the whole room (me included) followed the muse and created an awesome bridge

[MichaelAngelo]

Originally Posted by drBill

My #1 reason is creativity. That's prime #1 for me. I can't live without recalls anymore. I can write 10 pieces of music in an afternoon now. I could not do that before. I can close out a mix and go to another project when I start to burn out - I couldn't do that before. Over the years, I have found it hard to put this into words, but a recent interview with Greg Wells said it so well for me :

Greg said that his REALLY creative period only lasts an hour or so. After that, it heads downhill. (My paraphrase) When he recently produced Burt Bacharach he asked him the secret to his writing regime. Burt replied - I only write for 2-3 minutes at a time, then leave and go do something else. After 2-3 minutes I can't keep the creativity at the highest level that I want. (Again, my paraphrase - sorry Greg).

And after hearing Greg lay it out so logically and simply, the light bulb went on for me. It's something that I have intrinsically known for 30 years. When you first approach a mix, a song, a vocal, a solo - an overdub - whatever - you are freshest and that's when the MAGIC (not the "work") happens. It's why I am ALWAYS in record.

I'm all about capturing, recreating, and putting out as much magic as I can jam into the music I am working on. Recall affords me that reality. Hardware does not. Hardware almost always sounds better, but it is another veil between me and the elusive living and fleeting spirit of music. You'll even notice lots of big name mixers who mix with TONS of outboard - leaving various pieces with exact settings and not changing them. For instance, always having an 1176 patched into a particular EQ for bass, and never changing those pieces. Just making sure the gain staging on the console is right before hitting those pieces. In effect, making "recall" easier with their analog gear. Unfortunately, that takes several hundred thousand bucks worth of gear to do, and that's not in the cards for most of us.

Creativity. It is #1 for me. Recall-ability affords me PERSPECTIVE. And a fresh perspective is the #1 tool that I use to conjour up, grab and tame the creative muse.

It's not about lazyness. It's not about shortcuts. It's all about grabbing that elusive muse when it is so vain and fickle.

If I have to work on a song on the console (and yes, I have a big-ass automated one with lots of nice outboard), and before I want to, I'll have to tear down and go to the next song. At that point, the muse has left the building......and it's not coming back no matter how hard you try and how much you want to believe.

TOTAL recall, not the old SSL-style "reset the hundreds of knobs" recall has completely re-energized and recharged the way I write / mix / produce. I'm not saying everyone has to feel the way I do, but it has changed my life for the better. (In most ways. In others there is a downside, but I will live with that for the luxury of creativity.)

I here your point, but a good mix is like a performance. If I had to remix my clients music alot I would get out of the biz.... Its like get it right and hot now...not tweak and tweak the hell out of until the soul is gone

[drBill]

Originally Posted by MichaelAngelo

I here your point, but

Honestly, no disrespect, I don't think you do hear it. I think you missed it. But that's OK. It's not about tweaking the hell out of things til their soul is gone.....

[TheBankInc]

Bill, I totally agree with you on most things you said and not that I was implying that anyone in particular was lazy, I was talking about what was important when I started learning. Sound quality and tone above everything else. I guess I have a separation between the different aspects of projects and job requirements in my head. When I track, ITB alone would definitely disturb the "moment" in that I couldn't switch status and build my mix while I overdub etc. Multiple Headphone mixes are a chore and other things I normally do would be hard at best. When I'm editing, processing or arranging, the box murders tape and I don't need more then 2 channels of console. When It comes time to mix, and a lot of jobs we all get these days were recorded straight to disk without professional help need a lot of massaging just to be ready to mix to say the least. If ITB mixes are the best for anyone, ok. I've heard more then a few that were very, very good. Probably using a lot of outboard though.
My point was that in engineering and definitely in mixing, I feel that the sound quality of the final project and translating the emotion of the song to the listener is the first priority. My comfort does not factor in to that.
I guess as a producer, I would prefer instant recalls,efficient session workflow and moving quickly, if needed. I do this with my daws all the time. For mixing, I am looking for "that sound" and that's it.
Hybrid is the best as far as I'm concerned. Most of these contemporary artists need more help then they can afford to buy.

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by TheBankInc

Most of these contemporary artists need more help then they can afford to buy.

Whoa!!!! Talk about hitting the nail on the head!!!! It really is an interesting conundrum to factor in all of these options. On a different note. One other way this may all pan out (no pun intended) is if bandwidth capabilities and download capabilities open up dramatically. HD space is already getting ridiculously cheap and once we can combine the convenience of mobile devices while maintaining and/or resurrecting an appreciation for hi fidelity sound, we may just ride this lo-fi thing out. If so, in the end, everybody wins

[drBill]

Originally Posted by TheBankInc

Bill, I totally agree with you on most things you said and not that I was implying that anyone in particular was lazy, I was talking about what was important when I started learning. Sound quality and tone above everything else. I guess I have a separation between the different aspects of projects and job requirements in my head. When I track, ITB alone would definitely disturb the "moment" in that I couldn't switch status and build my mix while I overdub etc. Multiple Headphone mixes are a chore and other things I normally do would be hard at best. When I'm editing, processing or arranging, the box murders tape and I don't need more then 2 channels of console. When It comes time to mix, and a lot of jobs we all get these days were recorded straight to disk without professional help need a lot of massaging just to be ready to mix to say the least. If ITB mixes are the best for anyone, ok. I've heard more then a few that were very, very good. Probably using a lot of outboard though.
My point was that in engineering and definitely in mixing, I feel that the sound quality of the final project and translating the emotion of the song to the listener is the first priority. My comfort does not factor in to that.
I guess as a producer, I would prefer instant recalls,efficient session workflow and moving quickly, if needed. I do this with my daws all the time. For mixing, I am looking for "that sound" and that's it.
Hybrid is the best as far as I'm concerned. Most of these contemporary artists need more help then they can afford to buy.

Well said. If you don't learn how to build a great foundation when you're learning, you'll never build a great building no matter how hard you try, or how good your ideas are. Sounds like you come from a long term engineering background, and what you expressed is exactly what I'd want an engineer looking after.

Most days here, I have a perspective that's focused a bit differently though. Usually I'm wearing two hats. A "musician" or composer hat and the engineer/producer hat. (Maybe that's three hats....) I'm down with everything you said above except the part about "sound quality and tone" above everything else. For me, sound quality and tone come in second after musicality / creativity, and that's why recall is important to me. When I'm ONLY wearing the engineer hat, then I'd agree 100%, there's no doubt that for many applications, hardware - at least at this point - is superior to plugins. But, if I'm producing and not engineering and the engineer consistently impedes creative flow in search of tone....... He'll be asked to leave the session and I'll take over. That's rare, but it has happened.

I dunno, I guess my priorities have shifted over the years. Neither of our approaches are "right or wrong'. Just different ways of achieving and capturing an incredibly difficult thing to capture. These days I now try to focus more on the music and less on the technical. The ability for recall allows me to jump around between projects and keep that creative spirit alive and flourishing. In the old days, I really enjoyed the multiple team personality of making music - engineer/producer/artist working together as a unit. These days, that's just not possible for most aspects of my job anymore. Solitary days in the studio by myself as artist/producer/engineer seem more the norm. I miss the old days. I wish budgets were what they were back then. But we're not going back I'm afraid, and there's no more daydreaming for me....mixing to get back to (recall ). Cheers, bp

[phillysoulman]

For recording its hardware...for mixing,its mostly GREAT plugins...mostly UAD

[turk sanchez]

It's all awesome. I love plug ins and I love hardware. It's cool to mix the s#it up. Ever go direct with a vintage Jazzmaster DI'd into an Eventide?

I think the REAL question is this: if it was your own band and your own music and you are the producer and mixer, and you already had all the gear you could ever want (analog and digital), how would you mix your own stuff?

[jimmyboy7]

Originally Posted by turk sanchez

It's all awesome. I love plug ins and I love hardware. It's cool to mix the s#it up. Ever go direct with a vintage Jazzmaster DI'd into an Eventide?

I think the REAL question is this: if it was your own band and your own music and you are the producer and mixer, and you already had all the gear you could ever want (analog and digital), how would you mix your own stuff?

I would do everything I do for my clients, Hybrid

[turk sanchez]

Originally Posted by jimmyboy7

I would do everything I do for my clients, Hybrid

Nice. I would use some sort of hybrid I am sure too.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by drBill

I am not in either business and recalls are HUGELY important for me. For Creativity, for smooth Work Flow, for Client needs, and for overall speed.

Without recall, I don't think I could earn enough to live. Hence, recall being perhaps the most important aspect of my studio over tube/tape/plug-ins/console/monitoring/vintage mics or any other aspect of studio life - all of which I love and deem important.

It's a brave new world, and when recall becomes the de facto standard, it's expected and necessary and changes how you work. I CAN (but choose not to) work solely with plug-ins and earn a good living. I CAN'T go back to working how I did in 1985-1995 and earn a living, no matter how desperately I miss it and wish we could return to that methodology.

That's a #1 factor of importance. Survival of the fittest. I know it's selfish of me, but I still want to eat next week.....

really Bill? without recalls you couldn't earn a living? really? I think in the last year I called a mix back twice. Most of the time of there is a question I usually take care of it the next morning. Also what do recalls have to do with creativity?
BTW I don't mean ANY disrespect with this, you've been very helpful to me in the past, but I think this has to be a least a bit of an exaggeration. I suppose if you're mixing as you go and you have to jump around to many different projects then recall would be a necessity. That's usually in the jingle world, at least in my experience.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Also what do recalls have to do with creativity?
BTW I don't mean ANY disrespect with this, you've been very helpful to me in the past.

No worries, did you read the rest of my posts? I think they explain what recalls have to do with my creativity, but if you read them (especially #16), and are still scratching your head, post back and I'll try to explain it further.

And yeah, without recall, my ability to make my payments and live in LA would be seriously compromised. At best, I'd have to completely rethink things and find a new plan.

[SonicAlchemist]

DrBill's situation will be different than someone who is a recording engineer. The difference comes with the composing -- he is engineering/producing as he goes.

Imagine how infuriating it would be if you were a guitarist and you needed to string your guitar every time you wanted to play it so you could write a new song? How creative could you be then? Rather, everyone understands the importance of having the instrument ready to go so that when you have an idea you just pick it up -- its in tune, its ready - and you go.

For DrBill and the rest of us composer/engineer freaks our rig IS our instrument, and it needs to be ready just like the guitar.

And the nature of the industry is such that you have to be working on many many cues simultaneously, which increases further the need for the kind of recall DAWs provide so well.

[erikdrink]

Rack gear thoug exspensive...