U87ai with UA LA-610 MKII sibilants issue

[conceptino]

Have issue with lot sibilants using U87ai -> UA LA-610 MKII -> RME -> Logic 9. Attached file is not processed, just as recorded.

Some advice from you, pro gearslutz, will be great. Thanks!

[camerondye]

The mic and the preamp sound excellent to me, sounds like the combo is giving you a great sound.

1. Are you using a pop filter???

2. Having you tried the tape a pencil in front of the mic technique???

3. The 610 preamp on there has a cut at 10k which is where it looks like it's happening...try a little bit of a cut there??? The combination sounds a touch bright, are you boosting with the eq allready???

4. Have you tried different polar patterns on the mic???

5. Have you angled the mic down and not point it straight at your mouth???

6. Have you practiced not enunciating your "esses" as much???

As the last resort, try a de-esser? Try all these things and if you are still having issues then maybe you have a mouth whistle or something magical like that. Hope everything gets sounding great soon.
cam

[Jorg]

Try positioning the mic differently.
I have a 610 Signature Edition. I dont get that bad sss problems but I dont use a U87. I mostly use a Brauner.
Anyway, I would try a highr or lower mic position, try further away or angle it. See what works best.

[RiF]

Wow... I don't know this amount of sibilance from my U87ai (coming in through a BAE1073, though). Did you use the 610's compressor? I never used it, but I know it has a fairly slow attack and that can bring out the transients a lot.
If you did not use the compressor, try playing with mic positions. Like aiming the mic a bit down to the chest of the speaker and not directly to her mouth. Pop filter? If not, use one.
For spoken word, you'll want to get close to the mic to make the voice large, so you have to take care a bit more about the right positioning.

This mic/pre combo should be able to deliver a superb sound, so I'd say it's not the gear.

[roman manlord]

I don't know if it's due to sibilance or not, but I couldn't understand a word of that.

[RiF]

Two things came to my mind:
1. if nothing helps, you can edit out the S's manually by automating the gain. The attached file contains a quick edit where I dipped down the S's manually by about 5-6 dB. The editing stops at "ab 20 Uhr" to show the difference.
2. Is there any way to talk the LA-610 into geting a bit slower on the transients? My BAE1073 smoothes out the transients nicely if it gets driven a bit harder.

[RiF]

Originally Posted by roman manlord

I don't know if it's due to sibilance or not, but I couldn't understand a word of that.

I can understand you AND the words in that trailer .

[Jorg]

You can't really drive the 610s hard on vocal as they distort pretty quick. The distortion is nice and sounds awesome on guitars and bass but not really on vocals. Unless that's the effect you're after.
As already mentioned, try without compression if any was on.

[conceptino]

First, thanks for your time, gearslutz!

@camerondye

1. yes
2. yes, not significant better
3. no, no eq at all. Cut could be done after recording session or I`m wrong?
4. yes, but I´m stuck on "Niere" polar pattern for overall sound
5. yes, at too much angling, I´m loosing desired details
6. I know, female speaker (she`s singer) has rel. sibillant and expressive voice...
7. sure, I´m trying all software deessers on earth, there´s no one can handle without some artifacts on overall sound (and feel!!!). Normally I´m using hardware SPL Deesser or manually dipping which provides best results. But question is still, why my combo is so sensitive to issue ??????

@jorg

Yes, I´m trying Brauner Valvet-X a few times. Less issues with this female, obviously through lower output. But is not matching overall sound I'm looking for. I`m also get little better results with AT-4060, but on this one I miss many details U87ai or Brauner Valvet X provide.

I know, LA-610 can´t be driven hard on vocal but you mentioned "distort pretty quick". Sounds trailer example "distorted" to your ears?

@rif

Thanks for manually deessing! I practice this way or I´m using Hardware SPL Deesser. There´s no way to handle compressor params, it is fixed LA2A style. And believe me, with compressor bypassed, issue is not significant better. Same with different angling, distance, pencil etc. Then I`m loosing wanted details on overall sound and feel. "This mic/pre combo should be able to deliver a superb sound"...what`s your mind, after you`ve manually deess this trailer?

@roman manlord

:-)

@all

I´m talking to Neumann support and chief-repairman few weeks ago. Also send him some "sss" files. He calls me back after some days, explains some techical details on U87ai output level and tells me, considering LA-610 specs (refeerd to Manual, Page 36, max. mic input level) reason for "sss" problem is input overloading. Files I have send him was recorded without -15 pad, moderate compressed. After I´m switching -15 pad active (Gain 0, Level 6, Peak Reduction 2.5, Output 6) is going litte better, but as you can hear still 5-6 db to much.

I´m thinking, design of 610 preamp is little "deprecated" regarding handle high output mics such U87ai but combo has wonderful sound if you can catch (very, very small) sweet spot. I´ve read here in forum , this is also very hard to do for some expirienced enginners, and I`m over 30 years there.

I hope to find gearslutz, who use exacty same combo. But for furter advices I´m thankfull everyone on this earth!!!

[captainj]

Hi,

I have been using the U87ai >LA-610 MkII as my go-to vocal chain recently. My suggestion: Try using the lowest gain setting (-10) and don't use the pad. This sounds better to me than using the 0 gain setting with the pad engaged. Make sure your impedance is set to 2k. Also, I usually boost 10k (1.5 or 3db) and cut 200 hz 1.5 db on the LA610 and I still only need to manually de-ess the occasional line. Hope that helps

Cheers

[tguy]

For an application like that, I would switch to the TLM67. It can be had for cheap on the used market. I never found a preamp to get rid of sibliance issues.

[RiF]

Originally Posted by tguy

For an application like that, I would switch to the TLM67. It can be had for cheap on the used market. I never found a preamp to get rid of sibliance issues.

Maybe... But my U87 does handle sibilance with grace. It delivers silky shhh's where other mics deliver spitty S's. Soc would not blame the mic.

[paul999]

I found that the LA-610 could easily bring out sibilance especially when using the compression. The U87 and tlm-103 seemed to always find this and exaggerate it. With automation as suggested earlier it is actually a stunning combination.

[jcc449]

U87 capture a lot of Sibilant issue itself anyway.
I don't think it's compressor's problem.

[lovespirals]

have you tried it with another preamp? i've had sibblance issues using 610s that don't happen with other pres.

[T_R_S]

You need a fast preamp (high Slew rate). Try an SSL or a Focusrite (Red or ISA) pre.

[Dayo]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

You need a fast preamp (high Slew rate). Try an SSL or a Focusrite (Red or ISA) pre.

Why would a fast pre be kinder to sibilance? Not disputing it, just wondering what the theory is?

[jcc449]

Originally Posted by Dayo

Why would a fast pre be kinder to sibilance? Not disputing it, just wondering what the theory is?

Sibilant usually seems to happen more dramatically when compressor setup as slow attack/fast release.

I experienced that too I am honestly don't know why.