Replacing analog desk - going digital - advice needed

[davemurphy]

hi folks,

first posting to this forum, so please have patience with me.

I have a 36 channel Angela Amek analog desk and need to upgrade to a digital solution.

My primary constraints are that this is a teaching facility and therefore need to facilitate both ProTools and Logic Studio.

I'm thinking of replacing the desk with 24 channel control surface, a DAW, external Preamps and monitoring solution.

Currently I'm looking at a:
D-Command ES 24 (8 main fader + 16 expansion pack),
PT|HD 3 Accel,
192 I/Os x 2
JLCooper Surround Panner ES Option for Pro Tools
ProTools Pre (amp) x 2
SYNC HD
XMon

I have three questions that you may be able to advise me on.
1. Does Logic play with this system, and if not what is required to make it compatible?
2. Are there better, alternative solutions out there?
3. Is there anything 'obvious' missing from this list? (I've tried following the signal path from microphone to disk.)

many thanks in advance and I'm really looking forward to feedback/discussion.

cheers
Dave

[suicide shift]

Forget the 192s for a/d d/a.

[D.F.]

Don't.

[davemurphy]

Originally Posted by suicide shift

Forget the 192s for a/d d/a.

any particular reason why not the 192s ?
what would you replace them with?

thanks for replying btw.
rgds Dave

[TheBankInc]

Logic does not work with the 192's over 8 i/o from what I remember.

[Pro-Audio-LA]

What will you primarily be teaching? Full tracking and mixing of bands, etc? You can definitely step it up from 192's to something like a Lynx Aurora 16 to increase quality and not have to buy anything used. You may have some limitations using Logic (TheBankInc mentioned it may be limited to 8 I/O and I seem to remember that being correct.) There are also the Apogee Symphony I/O systems which work with both a Pro Tools and Symphony card (you swap the digilink/symphony plug between the 2 PCI cards.)

I would definitely recommend getting some good quality preamps, not Digidesign stuff. Something like Neve, API, SSL, Daking, etc. etc. depending on what you like and what kind of flavors you need to have on hand.

Having a control surface for Pro Tools is a great luxury, but definitely not necessary. Depending on what you're doing, you may benefit from a more modest control surface, and an analog summing setup so you don't completely lose that analog feel you had with the Angela.

Good luck!

[hasbeen]

I suggest you look at a Tascam DM4800 not to be confused with the DM4000. The preamps, EQ and AD/DA are just fine for what you seem to be doing and it plays well with both PT & Logic. The firewire card will be a must but all in all it is a great console for the cost. It is literally a digital patch bay, and you may add external pres or just about anything else with an analog or digital connection.

The control surface has 24 motorized faders for DAW needs. Or you can memorize your mixes internally for use with the console mixer section. 2 usable internal TC programmed FX units. Dynamics on first 48 channels.

Surround capable. You can use analog external eq, processing etc. Lots more too. No need for a gaggle of gear here.

[brew]

A few more questions you might consider:

1. How much analog and digital IO are in those 192's? You may have too much, or if working in 5.1, not enough. For example, if you fully connected the XMON, you might lose 12 to 18 analog outputs (main, surround mon from DAW2, AFL, cues). If you really want it to feel like a console you should do this.
2. Do you need remote controlled pre's? Otherwise, I'd choose something straightforward like the True Systems 8 or SSL Alpha Pre's--I don't see students grasping the Pro Tools PRE frontpanel very quickly. With the latter you get some "flavor."
3. I'm not sure if you can control Logic from the D-Command, it's not listed. It would have to do MCU or HUI and I think it's just Avid ethernet.
4. You only really need the SYNC HD if you're working with video/timecode and/or want the sample rate to change with the session automatically. With that savings get...
5. You may want a channel strip-style input for "the money channel." Pretty much every brand's got one.
6. A patch could be handy for outboard, but you don't mention any.

First alternative that comes to mind is the SSL Matrix. This will work with both DAWs simultaneously, something the D-Command won't do. They have IO solutions as well, comparable to the 192. You might want a patchbay for it. The Tascam recommendation seems good too. Both of course are consoles, unlike the ICON, which is good and bad.

I think you'd be splitting hairs worrying about 192 vs Lynx, etc. They all would suit your needs. The 3rd party HD stuff is more involved setup-wise.

[Steffmo]

I tought the senior seminars at a local university for several years. The set up covered a lot of territory for teaching and I ended up installing the same rig into one of my rooms.

The system is a Yamaha 02R86, Accel 3. 2 192, and 16 channels of outboard pre (API, Sytek, Focusrite ISA115, UA2610, Chameleon 7602, Trident S20, and come great analog comps (Manley Mu, LA4, DBX160s, Compex.

You could do the same thing with the Tascam DM4000, but what I like about this set up for teaching is that you can talk to the DAW by direct dgital, straight analog, mix itb or on the desk, use the DAW mixer or the console fader automation.

Basically, because its a real mixer, not just a surface, you can let student experiment with pretty much every option available, although on the mixer you will be digitally summing, still, its mixing on a mixer with automated faders.

I have 16 analog and 16 digital too and from the DAW at all times. I also use the console to feed stems to a Hear System.

Just another option to think about.

[Jim Williams]

Since analog consoles are still a large segment of the biz, consider keeping it to teach the youngin's about signal flow and gain staging. You already own it so it's not a problem to keep it.

[Snip]

At the conservatory I studied they installed a new studio with an d-command and lynx aurora's. They used dynaudio air25 monitors in surround setup. They told us the room should be flexible and be able to use protools as logic, nuendo etc. I really wished they opted for a PT-native and Logic and just use a euphonix controller. For the money they saved they could buy just 2 good monitors and a whole lot of outboard so all the students had a good feel of what real outboard gear can do. Dont forget you will need to spend another 10k on plugins to be able to do a really nice mix and the controller only controls PT so you wont use it when working on Logic. The d-command is nice if you can configure it yourself, but most students only used the faders for automation and will do all the rest on the screen...

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

I haven't tried a controller in years, but none of the ones that i did try felt anything like a console. Something to be aware of.

The last digital console I bought was the Tascam DM4000. I can't really recommend it to anyone for anything. I still have a d8b which I never liked. Both are so 1990s, I would not put either into a new teaching facility.

My own choice was to work without a console at all, just racks of preamps. But I don't think that this is appropriate for a teaching space as the only option. Would I want to offer instruction on an analog console as well as via controller, and just ITB? Depends on the focus of the curriculum.

[jensenmann]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Since analog consoles are still a large segment of the biz, consider keeping it to teach the youngin's about signal flow and gain staging. You already own it so it's not a problem to keep it.

+1

Depending on what you teach and how many students you have at a time in the controlroom the analog desk might be the better solution. We have one studio with a 48 channel analog desk, analog outboard, Alesis HD24 recorder and Logic with MotU converters. My classes are max. 16 students at a time. The other, smaller room runs with a DM2000, PTHD+Logic, little analog outboard, selected 5.1 gear and 5.1 monitoring. That room is used by max. 5 students at a time.

In opposite to the gearslutz hype towards spending most possible money on converters I´d more tend to maximum variety in gear. You probably want to be able to teach as many different subjects as possible. Compromises in quality may help moneywise to buy more different gear (or plugins if you´re into that).

[George Necola]

Protools HD with avid converters + d-command, second controller for logic if you need it. Logic is for composing I guess..?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Gearslutz.com

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Since analog consoles are still a large segment of the biz, consider keeping it to teach the youngin's about signal flow and gain staging. You already own it so it's not a problem to keep it.

That's something to consider.
Even if the kids are never going to see another analog console for the rest of their lives, I would suggest that is still a better teaching tool. Stuff like signal flow and gain staging are important in the virtual world, but they're not that apparent.
On an analog console they right up front. I think learning on hardware gives students an advantage.

[Telefunk]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Since analog consoles are still a large segment of the biz, consider keeping it to teach the youngin's about signal flow and gain staging. You already own it so it's not a problem to keep it.

exactly.

Actually i've even seen that some are changing back from digital to analogue in the form of a hybrid setup. (analogue desk + DAW)

[MarkRB]

Another +1 for Jim's comment.

Please don't get a digital desk and buy external pres.

You already have a decent analogue front end and everything plays nice with Logic through Core Audio. Surely you can teach the students signal flow better with an analogue desk, than with a bunch of unrelated pre-amps and a control surface?

Don't worry about your Digi 192's either. They are great converters used the world over. It's just kind of cool to diss them.... stil :/

If you have budget to blow buy some compressors or tape delays or something.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Since analog consoles are still a large segment of the biz, consider keeping it to teach the youngin's about signal flow and gain staging. You already own it so it's not a problem to keep it.

That is exactly what I was going to say. You also get the benefit of a bunch of decent mic pres and EQs, monitor controller, etc. Also the console does not really get in the way at all for teaching completely ITB techniques along side analog techniques.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan

That is exactly what I was going to say. You also get the benefit of a bunch of decent mic pres and EQs, monitor controller, etc. Also the console does not really get in the way at all for teaching completely ITB techniques along side analog techniques.

More than not get in the way, it reinforces.
The structure of a virtual mixer doesn't mimic an analog mixer out of nostalgia, it's a matter of function.
A lot of people who learn in virtual are very fuzzy on basic concepts of signal flow.
An analog console doesn't allow you you that luxury.

[Invisible]

Dave,

I very much agree with the later posts that a hybrid scenario is perfect for modern teaching... although a 32 channel desk may be overkill on space you have available. Not sure.

Check out my studio website and you can see a D Command sitting next to a 16 channel 1979 ADM console. I have taught some youger people in this room and it seems to bring the best of both worlds. I love my analog console for tracking, summing, signal flow concepts. I also love my Icon console for ITB flexibility and control. In my experience, the Icon feels good. Not necessarily like older analog consoles but that's the point of keeping both formats. They can feel the analog, they can feel the digital/control surface. If space is an issue, maybe a 16 or 24 channel "vintage" console would be better? Not sure what your budget is and not sure what you can get for that console?

By the way, not sure why the 192 hating in this forum. It's true they aren't as transparent or "warm" as some other things out now including the Avid HD I/O. Considering the prices are really low for them because of Avid's recent introductions, they may now be the best bang for your buck. And if you have a decent analog console for summing, the results can be pretty great.

Feel free to ask me any questions you have via the post or private on our setup here:
theinvisiblestudios.com

Cheers,
Mark

[Eganmedia]

Curmudgeon here-

I sold my analog desk ( a 32 input, 110+ input at mixdown) D&R Cinemix last year. Moving faders, dynamics, zillions of LEDs, etc. I replaced it with a Manley 16X2 mic/ line mixer and a new Digi C-24. For music it is somewhat more difficult than it's predecessor. Sonically ( with the same PTHD 192s and significant outboard) they are on par. For commercial stuff and audio post- where I can charge a living wage rate and keep the studio booked- it made all the sense in the world.

Yes kids need to learn gain staging and signal flow. But if you're trying to prepare them for the "real world", there's good reason to teach them control surface technology. Fewer and fewer manufacturers are building big analog boards. Sure they have nostalgic, workflow, and sonic value. Whether they have any value that translates into marketable skill sets is another matter.

Good luck-



Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[Jim Williams]

Another note: The console isn't worth much. You won't get much for it. You will get more out of it keeping it than the little $ you will get selling it.