Upgrading from Apogee Ensemble

[Kae]

Hi there,
After having invested a decent amount in mics, outboard pres, summing mixer and bus compressor, I feel that my Ensemble is kind of the weakest link in my chain now. I am seriously looking at the Symphony IO as well as other more esoteric solutions such ad JCF. Has anyone used all 3 ? Is the sound difference from Symphony IO (8*8) to JCF (AD8 and DVA8) dramatic ? Should I go JCF and be happy or get the Apogee and spend the remainder on other stuff ?

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Kae

Hi there,
After having invested a decent amount in mics, outboard pres, summing mixer and bus compressor, I feel that my Ensemble is kind of the weakest link in my chain now. I am seriously looking at the Symphony IO as well as other more esoteric solutions such ad JCF. Has anyone used all 3 ? Is the sound difference from Symphony IO (8*8) to JCF (AD8 and DVA8) dramatic ? Should I go JCF and be happy or get the Apogee and spend the remainder on other stuff ?

Hello Kae, I know these. They are not redundant. The gearslutz army may tell you to choose one or the other, but I'll say you need both, because it is what I need and WANT. I have the I/O, need that, yup - to connect to my Mac and Pro Tools and other nonsensical client dAW machines, and then I will use the 8*8 AES/EBU to connect to other converters, like a Latte, an AD8 and a DA8V. Trust me, these are ALL USABLE IN MY HOUSE. Then I will LOSE my Rosetta 200 and my need for Inputs and Outputs to my HAL2000 Machine. This will take me some time but I am DOING IT, and no one will stop me.

[Kae]

Hey Roc,
When you say you need both is it just a connectivity need or a sonic need ? I've also figured I might get both starting with the IO and then ad jcf progressively. That way I can have 8 ins and out of "transparent" and 8 ins and out of "tape/analog" sounding conversion. Is that what you meant ?

[Doc Mixwell]

LARGLY sonic related and LARGLY due to my thinking - and reasoning on how i would use all this stuff together for various applications. Also that I want a total of 16 i/o and possibly more (putting another 8*8 in the apogee is ALOT less money) but money does not matter to me as much as pure sonic enlightenment.

[Doc Mixwell]

And by the way - the JCFs do not yield any "tape" effect to my ear. It is quite an interesting experience to use these machines for what they are made to accomplish. But, You must try them with your setup to really understand this beyond the postings.

[Kae]

Thanks for your input Roc. Unfortunateluy I live on a small island somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, so getting stuff to try out is not an option. I do put sonics before money too, even with the hefty 35% customs fee I have to pay on top of gear (+shipping). So online reviews, sound samples and browsing forums is the only way for me to form an opinion.
How would you compare the AD on the Symphony IO and the JCF AD8 ?

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Kae

Thanks for your input Roc. Unfortunateluy I live on a small island somewhere in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, so getting stuff to try out is not an option. I do put sonics before money too, even with the hefty 35% customs fee I have to pay on top of gear (+shipping). So online reviews, sound samples and browsing forums is the only way for me to form an opinion.
How would you compare the AD on the Symphony IO and the JCF AD8 ?

Hi Kae,

Firstly, I would explain that the JCF hardware is incredibly rare. There are only a handful of people in the world using Josh's boxes. I think they all LOVE them. At least all my clients do. I've never heard one person say "I don't like that"...and I've never had any client return a JCF unit purchased from me. I think it's impossible not to like. At least in my experience. Though, really the truth is that if they simply do not follow your aesthetic or your expectation you'll be disappointed like anything in this game. Seeking out the info is all good bro, but what about you? I find the more you dive into explaining your goals, [beyond sonic enlightenment] the better the info you'll get and find.

Me, myself - I can tell you that I knew Josh's stuff would blow the wind up my skirt the first second I saw a picture of the DA8V with the top off on the internets. I said "F-Yea!!!". Online reviews are hard to weigh and swallow mate, you never know what context was driving the thoughts or lack of thoughts being jammed up your arse. Its really hard to suggest buying stuff ONLY on reviews [which over the years, I have found that it will mostly lead you a stray from your goals, if you only use these sources by themselves]. But, If you can find a bad review of the JCF's, then please show me the way I want to see it. Anyway the situation is what it is, and I will cash in some of my free time in order to help you out.

My thinking is that I would use my Symphony I/O for what it is GREAT for. Sounding AWESOME#1, connecting to the Mac#2, and doing it correctly w/ Slowgic, Pro Tools, Sluendo, Sleaper, Slabeton, Sleason, etc#3, but also for sample accurate hardware inserts with Pro ToolsHD#4, no-Latency Send's or from Inputs#5. Then I need the Extra AES/EBU inputs for such awesome Digital devices to attach like a Bricasti M7, a Quantec Yardstick, JCF Hardware etc, etc, etc. So as you can see, I NEED the Symphony IO in my studio. It preforms a great part of the chain, and sonically, it does this VERY well. I really like the way this unit sounds. To me, it is very good, clean, high headroom, wide depth of field, but musically inviting, with smooth fluid and polished tone.

When I procure the AD8 to use with the Symphony, I would use the AD8 as the PRIMARY AD converter for TRACKING, and if I needed more inputs, I would patch those into the Apogee. I would feed my artist cue mixes from the Apogee DA, and monitor the sound and engineer the sound, as is intended to be done with the AD8. It has been designed to make things better downstream, easier to ply, easier to craft, easier to mix and master. What a concept! It is shared by the DA8V and the Latte! I think the AD8 DOES NOT COMPARE to ANY other AD converter, [besides the Latte but even then it is still very different] and it is COMPLETELY different from the Apogee's quality and words will probably fail me on every level here. It has an amazingly purist, non-edgy-digital sound with life and creamy warmth without obscurity.

It sounds very passive to me, [there is no active analog electronics in this box, only a transformer per channel] allowing the sound to pass without unwanted resonances and artifacts, and only musical artifacts. Certainly the Symphony sounds hi-fi as well, but the AD8 is damn inspiring to me when working through it. It feels calming, removing of harshness, but also weighted, creamy, somewhat dense, [from the transformers maybe] but super wide, and crystal clear. It is MEANT for the ENGINEER to achieve better sounds and easier manipulation down stream. Everything that was done for the AD8, was done on a musical level. Symphony is crystal clear too, why do I still want to the AD8? Because there is stuff that is "unexplainable"....happening with it.

[ShadowAMD]

I tested out an Orpheus a UFX and a Metric Halo ULN-8.

I went for the ULN-8, just sounds awsome and does a good job. Didn't test the Symphony but it is a step up from the Ensemble..

[Palaver]

Interesting thread...

I'm looking at doing some major downscaling.

I'm mostly a keyboard guy that never tracks more than two channels at a time. I'm currently using a D-Box + Ensemble combo with some outboard.

I'm currently having the same dilemma with my converters.

I'm currently contemplating on grabbing a ULN-2 and throwing my master track through some outboard and firing it (and monitoring it) back into the ULN via a Burl B2 ADC or a Black Lion Sparrow.

This setup would drastically cut-back on my real estate.

I know I'm somewhat derailing things, but is moving from the Ensemble + D-Box to a ULN -2 + ADC box an upgrade or a cross-grade? Like the OP, I'm looking at improving my signal conversion.

I will be following this thread closely!

Thanks,
Phil

[Kae]

Hey Roc,
I really appreciate your answers, very clear and detailed, exactly what I was asking for actually. I really share you approach as far as the whole Symphony IO + JCF, and in the long run I am definitely planning on getting all of that, one piece at a time.
I might start with the AD8, using the ADAT outputs to interface it with my Ensemble. Or is it better to go symphony IO first ? Xhat do you think ?
By the way I just read that Doug Sax is using JCF stuff as well. I've always liked the sound of those Sheffield Records, I have a couple of those Direct-to-Disk vinyls and have alway been impressed by the sound of those. I guess if it is good enough for Mr Sax, it must be great for all of us.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Kae

Hey Roc,
I really appreciate your answers, very clear and detailed, exactly what I was asking for actually. I really share you approach as far as the whole Symphony IO + JCF, and in the long run I am definitely planning on getting all of that, one piece at a time.
I might start with the AD8, using the ADAT outputs to interface it with my Ensemble. Or is it better to go symphony IO first ? Xhat do you think ?
By the way I just read that Doug Sax is using JCF stuff as well. I've always liked the sound of those Sheffield Records, I have a couple of those Direct-to-Disk vinyls and have alway been impressed by the sound of those. I guess if it is good enough for Mr Sax, it must be great for all of us.

Hey Kae,

No worries I am happy to help out. I hope that through some of the context I laid out in the post, should give a deeper understanding, or qualification on why I think these devices are not at all redundant. However, there is a whole lot of things I have not explained in my postings, so FWIW, at a certain point here, you must simply choose your what your gut tells you, which has been fortified by your mind and heart.

To answer your question about going for the AD8 first, absolutely! Considering it is an upgrade, and easily combined, though, for a similar cost, the Symphony I/O [with an 8*8 card] is also an upgrade, and brings a better DA and a lot of other things to the party. However, in any event, I think the AD8 will always lead you down a better road with whatever you have.

It will easily be a step in the onward direction from the Apogee Ensemble's AD converters, granted they are totally different. I would say, while I have no problem recording through our Ensemble [have one too BTW] or my Symphony, I would rather use the JCF to record, anything. As I said the box is meant to make your life a lot easier downstream, and its not really some animated mojo unit that add's a color to your audio, though its character is only musical.

I think it is a real tool, that was designed by a tool maker wizard, who installed magic in the form of pliability and purity. As I get older, I get more excited about gear that is easily pliable across the spectrum. Sure, I love "color", and additional musical qualities to the gear as well, but what about a "color" that doesn't yet exist? I mean, the Color's we shape and create with our audio. That is what the AD8 is about for me. A very inspiring uniqueness that motivates my moves and techniques.

A fun fact, I believe Josh, [the head honcho of JCF Audio] has been [or still is] one of the head technician's at the Mastering Lab [Doug Sax's Place] and I believe that Doug uses the Latte in his technique, and if I am not mistaken it may have been a device that was conceived and designed over the coarse of 7 years time with such individuals as Doug, and other noteworthy people of interest. The Latte is again, one of the most inspiring devices I haver ever witnessed. Kudos to Josh for such radical hardware.

[Kae]

Hey Roc,
Thanks again for the insight. Have you or any of your customers have experience with using the JCF gear ( or any other brand for that matter...) with a RME AES PCIe card along with Logic 9 ? If it wOrks fine it should be interesting when one wants to use only specific converters.

[Johnkenn]

Just so you know...

******//www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...de-anyone.html

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Kae

Hey Roc,
Thanks again for the insight. Have you or any of your customers have experience with using the JCF gear ( or any other brand for that matter...) with a RME AES PCIe card along with Logic 9 ? If it wOrks fine it should be interesting when one wants to use only specific converters.

The RME cards are fantastic Kae, it would work great.