Drums and the attack

[Fezzle]

Another trick I do at times is with the decapitator on A (Ampex repro) or 'N' setting (Neveish I think)
after the SPL, it seems to do a more natural job of smoothing things out after Ive processed the shape of the sound with the SPL, takes away that 'tickiness' your on about quite well and remains snappy! It can sound mushy though I find less is more

[andyfreeman]

Funny how non-smacky drums are coming back. I like it, actually!

Anyway, to get a pillowy attack, sometimes hitting the crap out of the input on a 1073 does the trick.

And if you're looking for a comp that will take the front end off of a snare no questions asked, the Pete's Place BAC500 is it. I use it for that reason every day.

Sometimes a little Transient Designer afterward can help, too. But I only use that as a makeup after the BAC (or occasionally LCA2B).

-A

[szmola]

Originally Posted by andyfreeman

Funny how non-smacky drums are coming back. I like it, actually!

i like it too! with smacky drums listener gets bored!!

Originally Posted by andyfreeman

Anyway, to get a pillowy attack, sometimes hitting the crap out of the input on a 1073 does the trick.

i don't have a chance to try it out but that makes sense a lot to me because i know what's 1073 sound about. with which particular 1073 did
you get that pillowy attack? Original or some revisions?
i have great results using old neumann preamp and some other stuff but still want just little more pillow!

Originally Posted by andyfreeman

And if you're looking for a comp that will take the front end off of a snare no questions asked, the Pete's Place BAC500 is it. I use it for that reason every day.

any other suggestions? if i get it right FET comps will do the best job.
my fmr rnc can't be that fast. only if it's squashed non-stop but that's option just for parallel compression.

[andyfreeman]

with which particular 1073 did
you get that pillowy attack?

I'm fortunate enough to have two AMS Neve 1073's. But even those aren't a magic bullet, lest anyone is running to their local pro audio shop with a credit card right now. (Stop! Don't do it! You've got your whole life in front of you!)

BTW - we are talking about solving problems that should ideally be addressed in the tracking phase. For instance, step one in tracking drums with less attack should be DON'T let the drummer rimshot. Hit in the center of the snare, and mute the head with moongel, remo-ring, wallet, or nothing, etc., depending on the sound you're after. After all, nobody rimshots toms, and you seldom see a thread about how to decrease tom attack. (This isn't a perfect analogy, but it's close enough.)

Also, tuning plays a factor, of course. Learn to tune drums properly and tracking them gets a whole lot easier and more fun.

-A

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by andyfreeman

For instance, step one in tracking drums with less attack should be DON'T let the drummer rimshot.

What? lol You better not record any reggae drummers then....

Seriously though, if the drum part has rimshots in it, it has rim shots in it. Are you serious? Surely not.....

[andyfreeman]

What? lol You better not record any reggae drummers then....

Seriously though, if the drum part has rimshots in it, it has rim shots in it. Are you serious? Surely not.....

Sorry to be confusing. I only meant that if you are sure you don't want smacky drums, then not rimshotting is a good start. If you do want smacky drums, then go for it. It's style-dependent, of course.

A good example is a mid-2000's ELO live performance that I saw. Jeff Lynne wants that soft snare sound, so the drummer had his snare tilted toward him at a 30º angle. He's also hitting with the butt end of the stick to "spread" the attack out. And he is hitting the daylights out of it, but only in the dead middle of the snare where he gets more fundamental.

[druhms]

Don't be afraid to try two or three suggestions and bring them up on separate tracks. I use to get a lot of that sound as well. I'd personally mult it out. One going to a pre that gets some fuzz on it to help mimic something of a snare bed that you can run to a short (pcm 70 ish) verb. Another mult to a super fast compressor, and smash the hell out of it. Don't sweat the bleed, just try to hard eq the nastyness out after you have blended this channel. Then one more mult to the SPL Transient Designer. Mix all of these, including original snare track that has been lightly comped and eq'd to taste. Use the Transient Designer to mix in anything you over or under compensated for in previous mults. Desk eq (or plug in a simple eq) to try to make it all work. If it all sounds a little discombobulated, automate your blending to compensate for player error, or run all of that through an 1176 and try to glue it together.

.... or just throw a sample on there to mix in! Ugh, we all do it these days, right?

JJ Crews

[RoundBadge]

I've had luck sometimes doing a bit of transient designer and a dbx 160,api 525 etc

[dandeurloo]

This is an interesting topic. I hear tons and tons of attack in modern pop records. Its like its all attack and smack from the drums. Most of which come from samples. But to me when not working in the good old fashion Tape domain. I am always trying to control the attack. After all, drums are played by hitting things with hard sticks. Basically all attack! Tape seems to magically help regulate that and digital seems to record it as is. Not a fault but, you do need to think of it differently.

So consider a few things, shell type and size, head type and tuning are so important in making tracks musical. Now depending on the style you are working on which sounds like it is punk. You may be able to get away with more attack.

If you are done with the tracking then I would say your best bet will be to use analog gear to help tame some of the attack. The Missing Links and tube gear are good for that. Basically tubes, transformers and tape! Also, try some parallel compression to help thicken the snare. Maybe not so much to take down the attack but to bring up the rest of the tone and then blend the 2 together.

Just a few thoughts and maybe helpful suggestions.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

but if you guys are using distortion, I should try it.

I do use the CRAP outta Valley gear, and I saw this suggested.

John, decaptator is your friend. I almost use it like a saturated EQ/Compressor, but it's hard to put into words. With it's "mix" parallel path, it's very easy to go from a slight tape sound to complete........decapitation. Using it more and more and more these days.

I'm not sure I'd suggest going for the Dyna-mite. That seems like it is going to exacerbate the attack issue. Sure can spank a snare though...

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing. Is this on the stuff you cut with vp-26 and condenser on snare?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

I've had luck sometimes doing a bit of transient designer and a dbx 160,api 525 etc

Indeed, enveloper + hugger should do it.

[crille_mannen]

Just so you know.. The Images and Words snare is totally replaced with samples. Which is pretty obvious to me.

[szmola]

Originally Posted by andyfreeman

I'm fortunate enough to have two AMS Neve 1073's. But even those aren't a magic bullet, lest anyone is running to their local pro audio shop with a credit card right now. (Stop! Don't do it! You've got your whole life in front of you!)

BTW - we are talking about solving problems that should ideally be addressed in the tracking phase. For instance, step one in tracking drums with less attack should be DON'T let the drummer rimshot. Hit in the center of the snare, and mute the head with moongel, remo-ring, wallet, or nothing, etc., depending on the sound you're after. After all, nobody rimshots toms, and you seldom see a thread about how to decrease tom attack. (This isn't a perfect analogy, but it's close enough.)

Also, tuning plays a factor, of course. Learn to tune drums properly and tracking them gets a whole lot easier and more fun.

-A

yeah, but if drummer is not touching the rim shot while punching the snare that's not the same sound anymore.
ok, moogel and stuff like that is cool to get some kind of tightness because of less resonance and changing vibration of coat but changing the shot to have less attack is similiar sh*t like when many FOH people say: turn down JCM800, i can do a better mix if you do that.
my heart doesn't have the whole life in front of my whole life to listen bad snare.
no offence! appreciate your advices!

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

BTW, not to derail the subject, but who's using any of the 1176 clones? If so, who's happy with what manufacturer's kit or assembled unit? I ask because the real deal has become STUPIDLY expensive.

I did alot of research and the hairball 1176 clones were the best . For all the parts its around $500 . Hairball Audio

[jordanvoth]

I agree with Greg about the VCA's, always seems to add a little hardness to the sound. A LOT of modern rock/punk stuff has this softer attack to it while still having the right smack for the style. You could dial in the attack using a sample that's been automated, I've done this with varied results, using different EQ rips and compression to tame the inital smack while using the original track for the sustain and body from the drum. Sound clip would be very helpful if you can post. It's obviously too late at this point but Evans Genera Coated heads do magic for this. What kind of snare drum was it? Mic? Placement?

[joeq]

I hesitate to suggest this, as I have no personal experience with the software, and of course it's an official Gearslutz "Love To Hate" product, but Antares Mic Modeler has the claimed ability to mimic the transient response of different microphones.

If the question was how to 'achieve' the softer sound, I would have said, "change your mic" before fussing with different preamps, compressors and transient designers, but it seems that John has to mix tracks that are already recorded.

Might be worth a shot. Maybe there's a demo...