So what comes after your summing box?

[Flymax]

Curious what y'all are going thru and ending up on.

I'm going thru a C2 and a 192 back into Pro Tools.

[Jim Roberts]

Originally Posted by FLYMAX

Curious what y'all are going thru and ending up on.

I'm going thru a C2 and a 192 back into Pro Tools.

Using a Folcrom into a RND 5012 > RND 5042 > Avalon 747 (EQ Section only, no comp) > Alan Smart C2 then back into PT. Works great for us!

[Jules]

We output our 48k PT sessions
Via 16 Prism Dream ADA converters to
A Folcrom
into API pre's
into a Cranesong Hedd @ 96k (the tape and valve process sounds at 96k are extra fab)
into Masterlink @ 96k

BUT - I want to try my new Benchmark ADC-1 at 96k instead of the Hedd to see if I like it better & try the Chandler TG2 and see if I like that better than the API's for makeup..

Havent been mixing much myself .. so haven't had the chance...



(I am 'stuck' on PT Mix + so cant then work with these 96k files within PT {as Mix + only goes up to 48k} - therefore I SRC the 96k files down to 44.1 if I am mastering it.. But I PREFER to send the 96k mixes to a pro mastering house!)

[phelbin]

Out of Pro Tools 192 Digital I/O
into Radar Nyquist (for DA)
into Trident Series 80 Console for summing
Tube Tech compressors on the Stereo Bus
Back into Radar (for AD)
Back into PT

[cmj2430]

Originally Posted by Jules

We output our 48k PT sessions
Via 16 Prism Dream ADA converters to
A Folcrom
into API pre's
into a Cranesong Hedd @ 96k (the tape and valve process sounds at 96k are extra fab)
into Masterlink @ 96k

BUT - I want to try my new Benchmark ADC-1 at 96k instead of the Hedd to see if I like it better & try the Chandler TG2 and see if I like that better than the API's for makeup..

Havent been mixing much myself .. so haven't had the chance...



(I am 'stuck' on PT Mix + so cant then work with these 96k files within PT {as Mix + only goes up to 48k} - therefore I SRC the 96k files down to 44.1 if I am mastering it.. But I PREFER to send the 96k mixes to a pro mastering house!)

Taking a 48 session up to 96k during the sum sounds interesting. What effect has that had on the sound? I've got a Masterlink as well so I may want to give that a shot. Anyone else doing this? I'm just about to dive into analog summing so this is a very useful thread so far.....

[Kingtone]

Originally Posted by Jules

BUT - I want to try my new Benchmark ADC-1 at 96k instead of the Hedd to see if I like it better & try the Chandler TG2 and see if I like that better than the API's for makeup..

cant say what the difference is in using the API's for the makeup gain... but i quite often run my mix into the TG2... is nice and warm and squeezy!
can give it a real great tonal character... im sure the API's are doing the same.. but worth the try.. i give the TG2 a for this duty

[Chapiro]

Out of the 192's into a manley 16 x 8 x 2 mixer and from there to a vari mu and back to pro tools and a masterlink

chapiro

[Jules]

Originally Posted by cmj2430

Taking a 48 session up to 96k during the sum sounds interesting. What effect has that had on the sound? I've got a Masterlink as well so I may want to give that a shot. Anyone else doing this? I'm just about to dive into analog summing so this is a very useful thread so far.....

I suggest you try a quick test yourself.with your Masterlink

Record a summed, analog mix at:

44.1k 16bit
44.1k 24 bit
96k 24 bit

And use the "Make Red book CD" function

And see which comes out best

My money is on the higher sample & bit rate version!



For a description of sound?... Higher quality, more luxurious, deeper low end... simply 'bigger'

[3rd world order]

not quite into the summing box thing yet but...

001 > HEDD D/A (48k) > Smart C2 > Neve 3114 EQs > Studer A810 1/4" 15 IPS GP9 > HEDD A/D (44.1 process on) > computer

[engmix]

I recently finished up a mix for a pop rock client. Signal flow was 192-SSL G Comp-Masterlink. I also tracked the mix back into PT from the SSL. I went back and fourth between the two. Listening closely to the overall vibe, top end, mids, bottom end, width. Btw, I have the 192 clocked via a Big Ben. I finally came to this conclusion.

The 192 sounded a bit thicker in the low midrange. I noticed a slight clipping of the high frequency area of the mix. The low mid thing was initially sort of cool, but after a while started to almost sound a little wooly or cloudy, in a digital way. I also noticed the vocal and guitars sounded slightly more pushed in the 700-1000k area as well. I find that Digidesign converters have a bit of an aggressive vibe to them, which I often quite like. I don't always like that sheen that everything gets when tracking through an Apogee. I find it can get redundant at the final mix stage.

The Masterlink seemed overall well balanced over the whole frequency spectrum of the mix, and had a little more depth. There was a noticeable sheen ala Apogee that wasn't on the 192. It gave the mix more of a modern / slick edge to me. Since I often mix singles that hopefully more than not, end up on radio, this effect was just what the doctor ordered.

If I were mixing a hip hop record I would go with the 192. Everything else with the Masterlink. It sounded more audio file to me.

I asked Greg Calbi over at Sterling Sound what his thoughts were about 96k? He said "I have to tell ya, after it's all said and done, I don't really hear much of a difference compared to 48k knocking down to 16 / 44.1.

[phelbin]

Originally Posted by engmix

I asked Greg Calbi over at Sterling Sound what his thoughts were about 96k? He said "I have to tell ya, after it's all said and done, I don't really hear much of a difference compared to 48k knocking down to 16 / 44.1.

That's kind of what we're all dealing with until the record industry makes an upgrade. There is no question that a recording at 88.2/96 sounds better, but nobody is going to hear it at that sample rate after it leaves my studio. For now, the biggest difference is made by using great sounding gear and high-end converters.

[GYang]

Originally Posted by engmix

I asked Greg Calbi over at Sterling Sound what his thoughts were about 96k? He said "I have to tell ya, after it's all said and done, I don't really hear much of a difference compared to 48k knocking down to 16 / 44.1.

I work mostly with 24/96 to satisfy clients and fully agree with aforesaid.
No difference to hear in final 16 bit CDs. Or more exact - no difference worth higher processing power with minor exception of some plug ins, that I anyways almost don't use.
But I like to keep 24/96 masters just for case.

After summing box I use 2-buss comp Phoenix or C2, sometimes EQ to Masterlink via best convereter available at particular momen (DSC, Lavry etc). Works fine.

[Albert]

Speck X.Sum > DAV BG-1 > Universal Audio 2192 > ProTools or Digital Performer. Sounds excellent! I'll be adding in the DAV BG-4 comp/limiter before the converters, as well.

[fross]

Mytek > Folcrom > HV-3D > STC-8 > Mytek

[Jim Williams]

HD24XR with LT chips and some outboard D/A's like BB1704/BB1793 into Soundcraft Delta into Crystal CS5396 A/D, noise shaped to 16 bits, 44.1 k hz sample rate. Then on to CD prep.

Unlike most, I reduce bit count via digital hardware, not software. It's done at the beginning, not the end. I've not found a software solution that doesn't suck the air out of my mixes.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Unlike most, I reduce bit count via digital hardware, not software. It's done at the beginning, not the end. I've not found a software solution that doesn't suck the air out of my mixes.

Hey Jim, still enjoying your mods on my Compellor and Urei 546.

Could you explain your post a bit more for me? When you say you reduce bit count at the beginning, not the end, what do you mean and how do you go about that?

[Knastratt]

6 months of cup noodles?

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Jules

We output our 48k PT sessions
Via 16 Prism Dream ADA converters to
A Folcrom
into API pre's
into a Cranesong Hedd @ 96k (the tape and valve process sounds at 96k are extra fab)
into Masterlink @ 96k

Hey Jules,

How hard are you hitting your API's? Where on the API meters are you putting the levels? Just curious.

thanks,
Brad

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Albert

Hey Jim, still enjoying your mods on my Compellor and Urei 546.

Could you explain your post a bit more for me? When you say you reduce bit count at the beginning, not the end, what do you mean and how do you go about that?

When I was fed up with the results from the local LA mastering houses, I decided to figure out the best way to preserve the mix quality when transfering to CD. I tried mixing digital 24 bits, mixing digital 24 bits upsampled and rate reduced, 24 bit analog mix at high sample rates and hardware sample rate conversion, straight 44.1 analog A/D mix, 24 bit with mastering software dithering to 16 bits, 44.1 analog A/D mix noise shaped 16 bit.

Every software program including high end ones have a 24 to 16 bit conversion and 96/88.2 sample rate conversion. All suck the stereo depth and the top end air out.

The best way I found to preserve that analog mix is a digital hardware filter incorporated in the A/D stage. I program the CS5396 chipset via a pc using MS DOS to noise shape the 24 bits into a 16 bit word. See the CDB5396 data sheet for info on how this is done. Codes must be converted from hex to binary to decimal to do that. I set the sample rate crystal at 44.1k and feed that into a CD recorder, dat machine, PCI card, whatever. This is loaded into the mastering software as a 24 bit file, even though it's "encoded" 16 bits. All mastering processes are done at 24 bits. When done, the master dithering plugs are all shut off and a disc is burned straight across, remember, it's already 16 bits so nothing else needs to be done.

If I found an easier way to get there, I'd do it as this is somewhat tweaky to do. The results beat all the other ways I've tried so far. It definately beats the stuff I was getting from the "big boys".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The best way I found to preserve that analog mix is a digital hardware filter incorporated in the A/D stage. I program the CS5396 chipset via a pc using MS DOS to noise shape the 24 bits into a 16 bit word. See the CDB5396 data sheet for info on how this is done. Codes must be converted from hex to binary to decimal to do that. I set the sample rate crystal at 44.1k and feed that into a CD recorder, dat machine, PCI card, whatever. This is loaded into the mastering software as a 24 bit file, even though it's "encoded" 16 bits. All mastering processes are done at 24 bits. When done, the master dithering plugs are all shut off and a disc is burned straight across, remember, it's already 16 bits so nothing else needs to be done.

maybe I'm confused but if you do any processing at all in your mastering software don't you have to re-dither before you chop off the extra 8 bits?? it sounds to me like you're missing a dither here.

[Jim Williams]

No, because that extra 8 bits doesn't carry any audio, it's blank space. Chopping off nothing takes nothing away = nothing lost. It's basically ignored as the red book standard only allows 16 bits while cutting CDR's.

Does that make sense?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

No, because that extra 8 bits doesn't carry any audio, it's blank space. Chopping off nothing takes nothing away = nothing lost. It's basically ignored as the red book standard only allows 16 bits while cutting CDR's.

Does that make sense?

yes.. I understand this part..

but when you do any process to digital audio after it's dithered to 16 you'll end up with stuff in the lower 8 bits and that will be truncated... any gain change, eq, compression, limiter, etc will do this.

as long as you dont process the clean 16 you have, fine.

[deft_bonz]

On a submix (e.g. drums, choirs, etc): Massive Passive -> ES-8 or Distressor -> HEDD

On the mix: directly into HEDD

[ArcCirDude]

HD192 (Big Ben clocked)- M3 TubeTracker- (And to answer your question!) Massive Passive (Maybe, maybe not)- SMC2B- HD192

Works for me. For now.....

[Kaneepa]

Da16x/ Chandler Mini Mixer / Thermionics Phoenix / Lavry Gold mk II

[TanTan]

Lynx Aurora \ custom summing box \ Neve 1064 (or a custom 1081) \ RMS 755 \ custom stereo Pultec with ms mode option \ DCS 904 AD

[C Heat]

Jeezuz.

One box would be nice.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by Kaneepa

Da16x/ Chandler Mini Mixer / Thermionics Phoenix / Lavry Gold mk II

care to post some mixes thru this chain?

inquiring minds want to know