Which ribbon mic?

[michael c]

I am going to buy a ribbon mic (maybe a stereo pair) and would like to know if anyone has used/owns the AEA R84. How is it different than the Royer 121 or SF12? Any preference?

I will be using it mostly for horns, stringed instruments, and drum overheads. My preamp selections are 1073's and Avalon 737sp's. I know ribbons in general need a high gain pre so that may be an issue......

Thanks.

[e-cue]

Originally posted by michael c
I am going to buy a ribbon mic (maybe a stereo pair) and would like to know if anyone has used/owns the AEA R84. How is it different than the Royer 121 or SF12? Any preference?

I will be using it mostly for horns, stringed instruments, and drum overheads. My preamp selections are 1073's and Avalon 737sp's. I know ribbons in general need a high gain pre so that may be an issue......

Thanks.

I own the R84 and a pair of 122's. The 84 has a "bigger" sound to my ears, not necessarily better. The 122's sound better for overheads. The 84 I prefer on the lower string instruments and lower horns and woodwinds, and the 122's (flipped backwards with the phase flipped at the mic end: in case you don't know, this gives them a brighter sound) on the higher frequency stuff. I've heard some people say they didn't like the 121/122/SF12 on trumpet, but I have yet to find an instance I didn't like it. I only mention it because your result may vary.

Also, I suggest the 122's over the 121's. They allow you to use pre's that you really wouldn't normally use on ribbon mic due to noise, especially vintage stuff (I've been going ape-ca-cah over a 122 through an old tube gates unit of mine). For most apps I use, a 1073 or 737 both will work pretty good on both the 121 and the R84's. Honestly, I don't think you'll go wrong either way and both companies have stellar customer service.

One more thing, the match pairs of Royers will set you back about an extra $100 or so... Of all the mics (same models) they let me check out, they all sounded exactly the same so you really don't need them, except for maybe resale value.

[mpr3]

I just had a chance to use all three (R84, R121/122 and SF12) in a few different scenarios. Here are my thoughts on each:

The R84 is a great mic. It has a very natural/smooth sound and of the 40 plus mics we auditioned on the drums, the R84 was the closest sounding to the Royers, but it definetely had it a bit more hype in certain areas (not bad at all). The most notable difference between the two was in the bottom end. The R84 seemed to be slightly rolled off (HPF) when compared to the 121's. Also, the R84 was a truer figure-8 of the two and thus picked up more room sound. We ended up using the R84s for spaced overheads and while mixing they were a chief source of 'room'.

The 121/122 (we had pairs of both) were what we have come to expect from Royer, very flat response with practically no hype from 20hz to 20k. They sounded dark compared to most others, but after extensive A/B comparisons in a digital environment (Sony Board and Euphonix R1 Recorder) our ears and our guts prefered the Royers (and R84s) over the crop of brighter condensers/dynamics. The Royer stood out on electric guitar as sounding the most authentic of the bunch.

The 122 had a tad brighter sound (in the upper mids) than the 121 which made the 121 sound a bit nasally when A/Bing the two. The difference was MUCH smaller than we were expecting and it took us a while to focus in on the difference, but it was present.

The SF12 was just plan sick. I have never heard one mic deliver such a complete kit in my life. We used this dead center between the R84s and slightly higher than them as we needed to maintain equi-distance to the snare for all three overheads mics. I was impressed to hear that the SF12 was not swamped with cymbals, but instead had excellent tom imaging and added a very positive something to the overall snare sound. I want.

I learned that ribbons are very important in today's digital world. I think the Royer's would make a great first ribbon pair since they are most versatile (bright/dark sides) and very flat, but you cannot go wrong with the R84s or SF12 or even the m160s.

[bloodstone]

I operate in a project studio world and have been pretty pleased with the Oktava ribbons (through a Drawmer 1969), especially for the $. Have any of you A/B'd these with the higher end Coles, Beyer, AEA and Royer models? If so, what were the results? Thanks.

[MIKEHARRIS]

R122...Coles 4038

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by michael c
I will be using it mostly for horns, stringed instruments, and drum overheads.

I have found that the SF-1 really shines in those applications... having the flexibility of 'single mics' vs. the fixed stereo version [SF-12] is a wonderful convenience... but does require the use of two large stands when employing the mics for overheads rather than being able to use a single large stand... a minor point in the grand scheme of things.

[tom_c]

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...&threadid=6152

I started this which may be of some use.

good luck choosing
:-)

Tom

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by mpr3
The R84 seemed to be slightly rolled off (HPF) when compared to the 121's.

It's interesting to find how differently people hear things...the R84, to my ears (and a few peple who have heard one on one comparisons with me) have definitely noticed quite a bit more low end in the R84 than in the R121. This is neither 'good' or 'bad', as those differences can be useful for various applications.

[michael c]

e-cue:

I was wondering if you have used either of your ribbons with solo violin, cello, viola and acoustic guitar. Flute?

How were the R84's on overheads? I currently use C414-TLII's on OH and they work well but wonder if a ribbon would work better. I use the OH mics as part of the snare & tom sound, not just as OH cymbals. The TLII's seem a bit muffled to me, not that open...............

Thanks.

Michael

[hollywood_steve]

For what it's worth......

I've owned a Royer R121 for several years and think its a great mic. But when I wanted to buy another ribbon specifically for use with acoustic instruments and for distant mic'ing, I prefered the Coles 4038 to the R121.

If I was never going to record rock guitars again, I might even consider selling the Royer for money towards another 4038, but the Royer is just too good to let go. But my 3rd ribbon will definitely be another 4038 so that I can use a pair of 4038's on acoustic instruments and room sounds.

(the more mics you buy, the more mics you realize you need, it can really be frustrating....)

steve

[dtobocman]

Originally posted by michael c
e-cue:

I was wondering if you have used either of your ribbons with solo violin, cello, viola and acoustic guitar. Flute?

How were the R84's on overheads? I currently use C414-TLII's on OH and they work well but wonder if a ribbon would work better. I use the OH mics as part of the snare & tom sound, not just as OH cymbals. The TLII's seem a bit muffled to me, not that open...............

Thanks.

Michael

Have you tried your TLIIs in omni? -- the difference in sound is pretty startling.

[mpr3]

Well, I just listened to the files again. Specifically, R84, R121, and R122 on a 4 x 12 ENGL cab through a Spider with no fat. The Royers are smoother throughout the frequency response with a fuller sound compared to the AEA which appeared to be scooped 500 to 1000hz on the metergraph in comparison.

Furthermore, the 122 does make the 121 sounds a bit nasally in the upper mids, though it was not big enough to spot on the metergraph. The difference between the 122 and the 121 was not as pronounced on the S3As as it is on the K&H 0300Ds.

Originally posted by NathanEldred
the R84, to my ears (and a few peple who have heard one on one comparisons with me) have definitely noticed quite a bit more low end in the R84 than in the R121.

I distinctly remember the Royers coming in with more low end thud from the kick than the AEAs. Nathan perhaps you are talking about low meaning below 60hz? I will have to revisit the drum files to be sure. One thing is certain, the R84s pick up a lot more room than the Royers.

[e-cue]

Originally posted by michael c
e-cue:

I was wondering if you have used either of your ribbons with solo violin, cello, viola and acoustic guitar. Flute?

Here's my current prefs:
Violin - SF12 or 122's flipped backwards with a phase inverted before the mic pre (not necessary to do all the time)
Cello - AEA R84 - in conjunction with the appropriate pre, makes a glorious big sound
Viola - 122's - Very natural sounding
Ac Guitar - 122's - The extra gain lets you use vintage pre's that would've just been too noisy in the past, such as Rca/Gates/Collins/etc...

With all these mics, I cannot stress how important mic placement is.

Originally posted by michael c
How were the R84's on overheads? I currently use C414-TLII's on OH and they work well but wonder if a ribbon would work better. I use the OH mics as part of the snare & tom sound, not just as OH cymbals. The TLII's seem a bit muffled to me, not that open...............

Thanks.

Michael

The 84's didn't really do it for me on OHs. The 122's or the Coles (darker) sounded a lot better when I tried them out. The 84's don't seem as focused directionally, or at least, the 122's and Coles had a much better stereo representation when I a/b'ed them. All of them are awesome mic's that I don't think you'll regret purchasing.

[Sir Bob]

What preamp matches up well with the Coles 4038's?

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by Sir Bob
What preamp matches up well with the Coles 4038's?

A lot of preamps do. It's not a golden rule of ribbons that they want to see lower impedances from the preamp input, although sometimes that can be a life saver. If you're really worried about it get a preamp with switchable impedance like the Vintech 473, Chandler TG-2 (optional), or Great River NV. That way if you find that you prefer lower impedances for ribbons, the higher impedances will most likely be reserved for the condensers, which seem to produce better results @ 1200 and above to my ears (but again no hard and fast rules).