Best Pre for 2Buss Summing

[TrickD.]

I've entered the 500 series and I'm looking for help with summing on 2 buss. I have SH Mono Gama and Avedis MA5 Mic Pre's and I'm wondering which pair of pre's will sound better on my 2Buss. Just wondering if any of you have used any of these pre's or others for this. I mix ITB and have never summed out, but being that I just got outboard gear I'm ready to take my mix's to a new level (Hopefully). I would like to sum my mix's out through some pres then hit my Harrison 32 EQ's the some Comp. Please post any sound files if you have any comparison. Thanks

[RKrizman]

First of all, if you're just sending it out through two channels of pres you're not "summing" anything. It's already summed in the DAW. Secondly, I gather you have the pres so just send your mix through them and see what you like, or if they improve anything at all. There is no objective right answer to this.

-R

[Todd]

Hmmm, well, i dont think you're ready to take anything to the next level,
if you're asking people you dont know, about gear YOU ALREADY OWN, if one sounds better than the other.
If you, yourself are not compelled to LISTEN to something and make your
own judgments on what SOUNDS GOOD to YOU, then you might want to really think about why you're bothering to do any of what you're doing.

What is the point? If you need an "OK" on your decisions regarding sound, then there is no point. Making those decisions IS engineering/mixing. Thats literally what it is.

Music, mixing, etc.. its ART. Art is subjective. Maybe you should try Banking or something that has definitive, concrete parameters. You just repeat exactly what you're instructed to do, and do it. Much easier, right?

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Todd

Maybe you should try Banking or something that has definitive, concrete parameters.

[Arthur Stone]

Just do it...for me it works best on vibrant tracks...I used a BAE1073mpf on this track: Wha' time is it ? by Arthur Stone on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free


- although the moneys better in banking...apparently

[soypancho]

As RKrizman said, you're not summing analog in this scenario but I've used pres to add color to the 2bus before. Drop the output to zero so you don't break your new toys, then start bringing it up slowly. Different gain staging will produce different results. The mix itself dictates which pre will sound better, if at all.

For the record, when it comes to experimentation, assuming you know enough about your gear to be safe and not blow anything up, the general rule is try stuff and see how it sounds. If you don't know what will and will not blow up your gear, read a lot more. After buying it, of course.

[always_ending]

You had better be extremely careful with your stereo imaging using two separate, non-paired pre's for "analog gain", which is what I'm guessing you're trying to benefit from?

When buying 2 exact same model pre's from a manufacturer that are NOT stereo paired you will never get a 100% perfect pairing, as the pots, etc in each are subject to variations. Same things apply for mono EQs as well.

I would suggest you buy a quality summing mixer such as the Dangerous Music 2 Bus LT, which gives you "true" summing capabilities and allows you to process your busses feeding into it with different eq, comp, etc settings, and also allows you to place your busses either in stereo or mono, thus giving you a much wider stereo image. Coming out of the 2 bus's stereo output you can route through a good stereo eq and finally a good stereo comp to really lock everything in.

I wouldn't go for more than 5 db of gain reduction on your stereo comp IMO, if you're needing more than that, you should either check your levels feeding out of your DAW to your 2 Buss, or try makeup gain if available on your stereo comp. Be careful not to drive the makeup gain too hot on the comp on the way out, unless you're wanting your whole mix to have 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortion prevalent throughout the mix.

[TrickD.]

Thanks to you guys for your advice, and last I checked this was a place to come and get knowledge, feedback, & response's to gear and all things that is gear. Well you know there's always 1 in the crowd. You guys are correct that I'm not summing in this scenario. I was just trying to add a little color but maybe I do need to go a different rout other than using Pre's on a stereo mix. Before when tracking and mixing my gear was an Apogee ensemble and that's it. My mix's sounded a little harsh, not warm sounding by any means. But now with the different colored pre's I have. The EQ's , the Distressor and the Sta Level I will be able to capture a much warmer sound on the way in compared to before. Maybe I'll look into a Dangerous 2Buss.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
All 'modern' digital processing CAN manage 'analogue' sounds if you learn how to do it.
putting it through an analogue piece of gear just to make it sound more 'analogue' suggests you haven't yet learned enough. Try for example putting filters at say 40Hz and 18 KHz on ALL channels (separately) of your digital mix at the 'recording' stage of the process.
Learn to make it sound 'right' in the digital domain and you will be on to a winner.
Changing the paint colour of your car won't improve it's performance which is what you are attempting by looking for a 'magical' piece of gear to rectify what isn't necessarily 'faulty'.
True analogue summing (multiple channels) is a subtlly different mindset to mixing ITB as the technical performance of both can be very similar.
Matt S

[TrickD.]

Matt are you serious. Do you really think putting shelves on everything will compete with high end analog gear. PLEASE. if that was the case, every Studio would have NO reason at ALL to spend Hundreds of Thousands of $$'s on gear. They could simply buy an Interface and Shelve everything. Wow. I know there's no ONE MAGICAL piece of GEAR. Just multiple chains to a better overall sound. Last I checked that's the common goal to a great session.

[nigel saunders]

Originally Posted by TrickD.

I've entered the 500 series and I'm looking for help with summing on 2 buss. I have SH Mono Gama and Avedis MA5 Mic Pre's and I'm wondering which pair of pre's will sound better on my 2Buss. Just wondering if any of you have used any of these pre's or others for this. I mix ITB and have never summed out, but being that I just got outboard gear I'm ready to take my mix's to a new level (Hopefully). I would like to sum my mix's out through some pres then hit my Harrison 32 EQ's the some Comp. Please post any sound files if you have any comparison. Thanks

To try and answer in the spirit of the original question -
........

ITB mixes can sound sterile

sometimes they sound bad because the levels are too hot and running them out of the box restores some headroom and sounds better.

Summing boxes caught on for this reason but people often said they couldn't hear a difference between multiple stems and just a stereo mix going OTB.

Sometimes going OTB is better because the analogue gear in question sounds nice (transformers, whatever).

Having tried summing boxes my personal experience was that running a mix through an API A2D was as good as anything else I had tried.

There are threads about people running a mix through preamps with good results which should show up on a search.

good luck!

[seaneldon]

RMS Folcrom + JCF "LEVR" 500-series cards with transformers. Clear summing, but a little thick and harmonic "bonus" from the iron in the LEVR's. Keep in mind the LEVR's are NOT preamps...they are ONLY 0-gain amps for the Folcrom.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by TrickD.

Matt are you serious. Do you really think putting shelves on everything will compete with high end analog gear. PLEASE. if that was the case, every Studio would have NO reason at ALL to spend Hundreds of Thousands of $$'s on gear. They could simply buy an Interface and Shelve everything. Wow. I know there's no ONE MAGICAL piece of GEAR. Just multiple chains to a better overall sound. Last I checked that's the common goal to a great session.

Since you already have these preamps, instead of tossing around unfounded assertions maybe you should try running your mixes through them and see if it advances your cause. Get some inline pads to lower your mix output before hitting the preamps.

A lot of that gear that traditionally cost studios hundred of thousands of $$ is now going for pennies on the dollar.

-R

[TrickD.]

And some of the gear that cost Pennies now cost Several Thousands. I'm not making any unfounded assertion. I think your taking it the wrong way. People love to tell me that I need to learn more, Well (Who doesn't here). If everyone knew everything like they thought they did, we would have know reason for this site.

[TrickD.]

So here's where I'm at. I'm not going the route of the Mic Pre's on the 2buss. It was the wrong choice of words calling it summing. I had read an article where someone had done this and just threw the ? out there to see if any one had used these specif Mic Pre's for this. That's it

PD --------

[RKrizman]

So you asked people to post comparison files, but you, having those preamps yourself, won't take the trouble to try it for yourself? Dude, you might already be wearing the ruby slippers!

-R

[superwack]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

RMS Folcrom + JCF "LEVR" 500-series cards with transformers. Clear summing, but a little thick and harmonic "bonus" from the iron in the LEVR's. Keep in mind the LEVR's are NOT preamps...they are ONLY 0-gain amps for the Folcrom.

I agree but if you do want to run your stereo mix through some pres, do yourself a favor and grab a pair of Avedis Audio Line-Z pads... you can read about 'em on the MA5 page here Avedis Audio MA5 they basically drop the level/change the impedance so your mic pres think they are being fed a mic and, thus, work the way they were designed.

I've never used the SH but it seems like it would be cool for doing what you are trying to do cuz you could pretty quickly and easily swap the sounds.

[Mite]

I've heard GREAT things about V76. Folcrom with V76!

[Blue Lizard]

I'm running a pair of Folcroms and have tried the 2-buss through all of my twin sets of pres: MA5, BAE 312A, JLM TG500, Germ 500, Buzz Elixir, DAV BG1.

Plenty of character choices in there, but my goto is always the Elixir - seconding that clear but rich makeup that seaneldon referred to with the LEVR's...

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by superwack

I agree but if you do want to run your stereo mix through some pres, do yourself a favor and grab a pair of Avedis Audio Line-Z pads... you can read about 'em on the MA5 page here Avedis Audio MA5 they basically drop the level/change the impedance so your mic pres think they are being fed a mic and, thus, work the way they were designed.

+1!!! Check yourself since you already have them avalaible, but I'll go with the MA5's..

It's not going to fix a bad mix, but it could help cleaning some muddiness while adding weight and texture to the mix. Very nice IMO.

Just my 0.02$,

Bests,

Cheu

[Matt Syson]

Hi
The main differences between a properly set up digital versus analogue mix system is that the analogue has limited frequency response (in various parts of the chain), greater distortion and more noise. WHERE abouts the distortion, and limited response occur is probably part of the key to the perceived differences. A digital system may appear 'sterile' because it is not adding the 'corruption' of an analogue system. It is just a shame that to many peoples ears, some forms of 'corruption' are fairly pleasant (low order harmonics for example).
High level signals approaching the upper (frequency) threshold of hearing are pretty tiresome when blasted at you continually.
Matt S