Vintage Equipment Advice!! Vocal Chain

[jffmusic]

A friend of mine, just offered me the possibility to get some vintage equipment from him. I have a personal studio and always wanted to have some vintage equipment. This is a big investment and I would like to get a pretty educated point of view about this if possible. Maybe in the future with this equipment I could also rent my studio for vocal recording or something like this.

What I think is basically get an amazing vocal chain for tracking (Mic, preamp, eq and Compressors - one or two) and maybe some top quality EQ's (Pultec or Massenburg) or equipment for the stereo buss or any vocal or main instrument that needs a special touch that I can't get in the digital world. I really like modern pop rock vocals and music such as Pink, Avril Lavigne, Green Day, Kelly Clarkson, Katy Perry, etc. If you get the idea.

These is some of the equipment (would be great if someone mention something and why). Maybe he has a pair of somethings if needed.

Mics: U47, U67, Telefunken Elam 251, U47 FET
NEVE 1084, 1081, 1064 vintage
TELETRONIX LA2
SUMMIT TPA 200-B
UREI 1176 LN
NEVE COMPRESOR *LIMITER 2254 stereo
PULTEC PEQ IA pair
API 550 B, 560 B, 550 A
MASSENBURG 8200
PRE MASSENBURG
UREI LA 4
DBX 160 & 161

Thanks!!

[andivax]

I will go for u47 and la2

[erikdrink]

Pultec would have been my choice

[bibleboy3]

very impressive list of gear !! being that I am suffering from a bad case of G.A.S. I would take it all LOL!!!



Bill

[skybluerental]

MIC: i would get the U67 because, in my opinion, it is the greatest workhorse mic of all time.

PRE: i would pass on the Neve's because they fetch way too much money these days for what they actually do. for a lot less you can get a new pre that is just as good. Brent Averill, Aurora GTQ2, API, Helios, etc.........

COMPRESSOR: i would go with the 1176 (if its a blackface) or the LA 2A.
1176 will be more versatile and sound great on most anything. the LA 2A will be great on vocals, ac gtrs, piano, and bass, but not so great on drums or anything that requires fast compression action.

EQ: first choice would be the Pultec because they just sound sooooo good.
API 550A is a close second.

this is quite a nice collection of highly sought after vintage gear your friend has.

[jffmusic]

Thanks for the replys!!

Basically for the vocal chain. Can you let me know the difference in sound between:

1) U47 to U67
2) 1176 to Tube Tech to LA2
3) Pultec to Massenburg EQ

If someone has experienced buying vintage equipment overseas would be great to know how is the best way to manage the purchase.. 50/50 or how?

[joashlawton]

My current vocal "go to" vocal chain is U67 - 1064 - 1176 Blue Stripe. No regrets here

[jffmusic]

Pultec EQP 1A

[jmikeperkins]

Before you pay BIG bucks ($10,000 plus) you need to make sure the U47 has the metal VF-14 tube in it and has not been altered. Since the VF-14 tube has not been made in the last 45+ years, and is rare as can be, sometimes people do mods to the U47 so it can accept a different tube. While some of these mods might sound OK, they devalue the mic by 1/2 or maybe more. Also, the U47a model has a different transformer and the low end is not as good as the non "a" model so make sure its not a U47a. The tube in the U67 is easily to find and fairly inexpensive, so you don't see too many mods on the U67. The U47 is a simple circuit and the mic has no pad or low cut filter and was not designed for close up vocal work (even though it is used for that all the time). The more modern U67 has a much more complicasted circuit which features negative feedback. The U67 was designed for close up recording and features a pad and low cut filter.

The U47 and U67 are both incredible mics but they sound different. Keep in mind these are OLD mics and due to age and other factors, no two are going to sound exactly alike, so any attempt to describe the sound is approiximate. The U47 uses either a glued in place M-7 capsule (which has probably been replaced 2-3 times over the life of the mic which is absolutely normal) or a more modern K47 capsule (both are great, just a little different). The U67 uses a K67 capsule, which is also great, just different. The U47 has 2 patterns, cardoid and omni while the U67 has 3 patterns (cardoid, omni and figure 8). The U47 is not as warm sounding as the U67, but has a special magic quality to the mid range which is unique and you have heard it if you have ever listened to the classic recordings of Buddy Holly, the Beatles, and most 1950's Capital Frank Sinatra records (even though Sinatra used the similiar U48 which is cardoid and figure 8). The U67 is more up front in the mids with less top (again vintage examples vary but some U67 mics can be rather dark sounding). The U67 is a very versitale mic and can be used on everything from vocals to electric guitar to piano to drums. The U47 is not quite as versatile but is amazing at what it does.

If you are scared about the VF-14 tube going out, and not being able to replace it, then get the U67. If the U47 is an "a" model or has been modified, then get the U67. If possible, so and audition both and see what you prefer. If you take pictures of the inside of the U47 and post them here or on Klaus Hayne's mic lab, someone will chime in and tell you if the mic is original or not.

I too think the vintage Neve preamps are way over priced for what you get, but they are still very nice and have good eq. You can NEVER go wrong with an LA-2A or an 1176, but the 2 are really different from each other in every way and I would get both if you can afford it. LA-2A, which uses a photocell, is slower many times and better on vocals and bass (but this is subjective). The 1176 is an FET based compressor and faster, better for electric guitar and drums (again this is subjective). The LA-2A is more transparent while you can often hear the 1176 at work (but many people like the sound of it working). I love the dbx 160VU and you can get the 161 modified to become a 160 by having an output transformer added (talk to Jim Williams of audio upgrades, he is an expert with many posts on this forum). Can't go wrong with Pultecs. The API stuff is also nice. Some amazing classic gear much lusted for on this forum. If you can't make a good sounding record with that gear, something is wrong.

[jffmusic]

Thanks a lot!! For modern Vocals like Avril Lavigne, Pink, Katty Perry, Falloutboy, etc:

I have heard a lot about the Tube Tech CL1b, is this one more similar to the LA2 or the 1176? Which 2 of those 3 you will get or combined in a vocal chain?

Besides the 1073, which Neve (1081, 1084) you would get for this kind of sound? Not sure about their difference.

[Emwolb]

I think you are nuts.

You don't even mention how much you can afford.

If I had a small home studio with nothing high end, the LAST thing I would do is blow a crapload of cash on a bunch of vintage gear that will need maintenance...

Out of ALL of that stuff, the ONLY thing worth considering is a mic. The mics listed are really nice and REALLY expensive.

If I were you I would buy the U67 (around 6 grand, maybe more) and spend the rest of your money on current manufacture gear with a warranty.

Vintage gear is fun, BUT if you have no idea why you want it, its a complete waste of time. The gear you talk about buying will cost you 30 grand PLUS easily... Even if you just got a 67, pultec and la2a thats about 15 to 16 grand...

I bought all my vintage gear YEARS ago when the prices weren't ridiculous. With all the great manufacturers out now... This is just a silly decision.

You are buying a vintage Rolls Royce to learn how to drive...

Then again, if you are filthy rich and are just blowing cash on your hobby... Buy EVERYTHING listed. Not a klinker in the bunch.

[toneguru]

Its all good.

I would add:

Bock 507

Neumann M49

AEA 44c

All three are amazing mics and first choice in many situations.

api 3124

Neve 1272

Telefunken V76

EAR 660 pair

old 33609

(possibly my two fave comps of all time)

For EQ get the Retro if you can't afford the vintage monos.

- Cheers

[jffmusic]

Well a really good Mic and a really good pre-amp it's something always valuable that can give you a plus in quality on tracking. Compression not sure, cause you can always added after in the Mix with plug ins. Or it's not the same?

Also, I'm thinking about getting just 1 Mic and 1 Preamp for sure, that's why I'm asking for some advice. The Compressors (1176, LA2A or CL1B) and Pultec not sure. Depends on the price I'll get.

Why you think the U67 it's a better deal than the U47? Every search that I have done, the U47 is mentioned more in general professional recordings.

[Emwolb]

Originally Posted by jffmusic

Why you think the U67 it's a better deal than the U47? Every search that I have done, the U47 is mentioned more in general professional recordings.

I say the 67 because its the cheapest of the mics listed. The 47fet isn't a great vocal mic in general- thats the only one cheaper.

BTW- Of the bands listed, Greenday's signal chain is a Chandler LTD1 and an sm7...

Its not the gear, its how you use it.

[superburtm]

1081 1176 U47 ....with a 1081 I can make a fly taking a shit sound cool.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by jffmusic

A friend of mine, just offered me the possibility to get some vintage equipment from him. I have a personal studio and always wanted to have some vintage equipment.

Sorry... I feel compelled to ask... "why?"

If you were running a commercial facility and needed some buzz words to help get clients through the door I could understand [to a point]... but to have "vintage equipment" for the sake of having "vintage equipment" is kind of a foolish endeavor.

Yeah, there are some who think "vintage gear" is a fashion accessory... but in reality, these are tools. If you require a tool, you get it... if that tool isn't required then you don't need it... much like a professional mechanic will acquire tools that are necessary to complete a job, so lives the recording studio.

A good backyard mechanic will need a few good sets of wrenches [open end, box, socket] but you probably don't need an air driven system unless you're doing a volume of work that actually requires that kind of system [like you have the skills to build a >10 second drag car in the garage]. Obviously a professional mechanic will absolutely require a wide variety of tools that are powered by compressed air [even something as mundane as the local repair shop]... but let's face it... the weekend garage warrior won't need one, though they are nice to have if you can afford it / justify the expense... you still won't need the variety and breadth of attachments for that system.

Same with a lot of the tools you'll find for recording. A professional studio will need a far wider range of tools than a private studio. The professional studio requires the wide range of tools to insure client comfort / fulfill client requirements where the private studio will pretty much only require the tools necessary for the owner of that shop... especially if professional / released product isn't produced in that shop [and if professional / released product is produced in that studio there are a myriad of tax advantages to acquiring these tools which also make them far easier to rationalize / afford].

To say "I need 'vintage gear'" as a generic term is at best naive. If you need "X tool" which hasn't been made since 1952 that's one thing... but "vintage gear" for the sake of having "vintage gear" is really a fashion statement of the terminally insecure. If you've never tried some of these tools... chances are you don't know if you really need them or not. Over the years I've met I don't know how many people who've told me they needed a "Neev module" who've never tried one... who've told me they needed a U-47 [when a U-48 is going to be a much better tool for their application] or a U-67 or a ____ when they've never heard one... which means they don't know if they really do need one [except from the insecure feeling they're not "in the game" until they have one].

Without a doubt there are exceptionally valid needs and purposes for "vintage" stuff... but more and more the people who are looking for "vintage" stuff are looking at it from the perspective of "necessary fashion accessory" than from the perspective of actually understanding why they require this tool and in which application this tool might best suit their purposes.

As a note to the OP... I'm not breaking your specific balls... this was more a rant about the culture that has emerged over the past 10-15 years where "old stuff" is more and more being treated as a cure-all for insufficient skills and experience as an engineer. So many people read articles on their favorite recordings [see "Recording The Beatles" for details] and single out one or two elements of the recording chain / process as the "cure-all" / "magic bullet" that will get them to the promised land [when in reality it could be nice... but more often than not has similar (yet less catastrophic effects) to giving an 8 yr. old an UZI at the gun range].

Peace

[walth]

Originally Posted by jffmusic

A friend of mine, just offered me the possibility to get some vintage equipment from him. I have a personal studio and always wanted to have some vintage equipment. This is a big investment and I would like to get a pretty educated point of view about this if possible. Maybe in the future with this equipment I could also rent my studio for vocal recording or something like this.

What I think is basically get an amazing vocal chain for tracking (Mic, preamp, eq and Compressors - one or two) and maybe some top quality EQ's (Pultec or Massenburg) or equipment for the stereo buss or any vocal or main instrument that needs a special touch that I can't get in the digital world. I really like modern pop rock vocals and music such as Pink, Avril Lavigne, Green Day, Kelly Clarkson, Katy Perry, etc. If you get the idea.

These is some of the equipment (would be great if someone mention something and why). Maybe he has a pair of somethings if needed.

Mics: U47, U67, Telefunken Elam 251, U47 FET
NEVE 1084, 1081, 1064 vintage
TELETRONIX LA2
SUMMIT TPA 200-B
UREI 1176 LN
NEVE COMPRESOR *LIMITER 2254 stereo
PULTEC PEQ IA pair
API 550 B, 560 B, 550 A
MASSENBURG 8200
PRE MASSENBURG
UREI LA 4
DBX 160 & 161

Thanks!!

the LA-2A and 1176 and 1176LN are the most popular. the Fairchild 670 and ADR and Ear models are nice too. a distressor isn't vintage but it sounds good and i know averil lavigne uses one. Mixonline has some interviews with her producers.

[jffmusic]

Cool, Fletcher I understand what you say. Right now I have a vocal chain that I like, with an SM7, API pre and a distressor. I'm just looking to have a different color with a top condenser Mic. I have a friend that has offered me some vintage equipment and that's why I'm asking these questions..

I know that for years until now, SOME and of the Mics, pres and Compressors that have being used for top recordings has being Neumanns, Neves, 1176, etc. (I KNOW, NOT ALWAYS) So why not get it if the opportunity comes up?

[Showcase]

I would first of all go for the U67, even if I think the u47 is a little better for vocals, but the U67 is a much more of an allround mic that works on pretty much everything!

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Sorry... I feel compelled to ask... "why?"

If you were running a commercial facility and needed some buzz words to help get clients through the door I could understand [to a point]... but to have "vintage equipment" for the sake of having "vintage equipment" is kind of a foolish endeavor.

Yeah, there are some who think "vintage gear" is a fashion accessory... but in reality, these are tools. If you require a tool, you get it... if that tool isn't required then you don't need it... much like a professional mechanic will acquire tools that are necessary to complete a job, so lives the recording studio.

A good backyard mechanic will need a few good sets of wrenches [open end, box, socket] but you probably don't need an air driven system unless you're doing a volume of work that actually requires that kind of system [like you have the skills to build a >10 second drag car in the garage]. Obviously a professional mechanic will absolutely require a wide variety of tools that are powered by compressed air [even something as mundane as the local repair shop]... but let's face it... the weekend garage warrior won't need one, though they are nice to have if you can afford it / justify the expense... you still won't need the variety and breadth of attachments for that system.

Same with a lot of the tools you'll find for recording. A professional studio will need a far wider range of tools than a private studio. The professional studio requires the wide range of tools to insure client comfort / fulfill client requirements where the private studio will pretty much only require the tools necessary for the owner of that shop... especially if professional / released product isn't produced in that shop [and if professional / released product is produced in that studio there are a myriad of tax advantages to acquiring these tools which also make them far easier to rationalize / afford].

To say "I need 'vintage gear'" as a generic term is at best naive. If you need "X tool" which hasn't been made since 1952 that's one thing... but "vintage gear" for the sake of having "vintage gear" is really a fashion statement of the terminally insecure. If you've never tried some of these tools... chances are you don't know if you really need them or not. Over the years I've met I don't know how many people who've told me they needed a "Neev module" who've never tried one... who've told me they needed a U-47 [when a U-48 is going to be a much better tool for their application] or a U-67 or a ____ when they've never heard one... which means they don't know if they really do need one [except from the insecure feeling they're not "in the game" until they have one].

Without a doubt there are exceptionally valid needs and purposes for "vintage" stuff... but more and more the people who are looking for "vintage" stuff are looking at it from the perspective of "necessary fashion accessory" than from the perspective of actually understanding why they require this tool and in which application this tool might best suit their purposes.

As a note to the OP... I'm not breaking your specific balls... this was more a rant about the culture that has emerged over the past 10-15 years where "old stuff" is more and more being treated as a cure-all for insufficient skills and experience as an engineer. So many people read articles on their favorite recordings [see "Recording The Beatles" for details] and single out one or two elements of the recording chain / process as the "cure-all" / "magic bullet" that will get them to the promised land [when in reality it could be nice... but more often than not has similar (yet less catastrophic effects) to giving an 8 yr. old an UZI at the gun range].

Peace

My, my how times have changed Fletcher.

I agree... but that said they NEED to experience good vintage gear to be a true "all around" great engineer. You need to experience a wide palette of tools to figure out the sonic signature you like. There is no shortcut to this understanding.

I wish I started buying "vintage" gear when I got in the business. It took a good 20 years of buying "the latest and greatest" for me to realize the sound I was looking for was built into the "old" gear.

I like equipment that was built to military spec... I want anything I buy to outlast me!

[walth]

Originally Posted by jmikeperkins

Before you pay BIG bucks ($10,000 plus) you need to make sure the U47 has the metal VF-14 tube in it and has not been altered. Since the VF-14 tube has not been made in the last 45+ years, and is rare as can be, sometimes people do mods to the U47 so it can accept a different tube. While some of these mods might sound OK, they devalue the mic by 1/2 or maybe more. Also, the U47a model has a different transformer and the low end is not as good as the non "a" model so make sure its not a U47a. The tube in the U67 is easily to find and fairly inexpensive, so you don't see too many mods on the U67. The U47 is a simple circuit and the mic has no pad or low cut filter and was not designed for close up vocal work (even though it is used for that all the time). The more modern U67 has a much more complicasted circuit which features negative feedback. The U67 was designed for close up recording and features a pad and low cut filter.

The U47 and U67 are both incredible mics but they sound different. Keep in mind these are OLD mics and due to age and other factors, no two are going to sound exactly alike, so any attempt to describe the sound is approiximate. The U47 uses either a glued in place M-7 capsule (which has probably been replaced 2-3 times over the life of the mic which is absolutely normal) or a more modern K47 capsule (both are great, just a little different). The U67 uses a K67 capsule, which is also great, just different. The U47 has 2 patterns, cardoid and omni while the U67 has 3 patterns (cardoid, omni and figure 8). The U47 is not as warm sounding as the U67, but has a special magic quality to the mid range which is unique and you have heard it if you have ever listened to the classic recordings of Buddy Holly, the Beatles, and most 1950's Capital Frank Sinatra records (even though Sinatra used the similiar U48 which is cardoid and figure 8). The U67 is more up front in the mids with less top (again vintage examples vary but some U67 mics can be rather dark sounding). The U67 is a very versitale mic and can be used on everything from vocals to electric guitar to piano to drums. The U47 is not quite as versatile but is amazing at what it does.

If you are scared about the VF-14 tube going out, and not being able to replace it, then get the U67. If the U47 is an "a" model or has been modified, then get the U67. If possible, so and audition both and see what you prefer. If you take pictures of the inside of the U47 and post them here or on Klaus Hayne's mic lab, someone will chime in and tell you if the mic is original or not.

I too think the vintage Neve preamps are way over priced for what you get, but they are still very nice and have good eq. You can NEVER go wrong with an LA-2A or an 1176, but the 2 are really different from each other in every way and I would get both if you can afford it. LA-2A, which uses a photocell, is slower many times and better on vocals and bass (but this is subjective). The 1176 is an FET based compressor and faster, better for electric guitar and drums (again this is subjective). The LA-2A is more transparent while you can often hear the 1176 at work (but many people like the sound of it working). I love the dbx 160VU and you can get the 161 modified to become a 160 by having an output transformer added (talk to Jim Williams of audio upgrades, he is an expert with many posts on this forum). Can't go wrong with Pultecs. The API stuff is also nice. Some amazing classic gear much lusted for on this forum. If you can't make a good sounding record with that gear, something is wrong.

i think there's a U47a on ebay right now for sale. around $5k