HEADPHONES for critical mixing: Sennheiser verus Ultrasone

[diegua]

I just got the ultrasone 750 pro. They are still in the running-in process but my first impression was super positive. I also have the AT ATHM50 and the Sennheiser 595. those are also good but I think that the ultrasone are a step above. We will see ... it is too early to tell.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by rapideye

ok, i've been guilty of ignoring the headphone amp. time to make amends.

can anyone recommend a decent amp, not in the esoteric range? (perhaps up to $500? that seems like it should be sufficient, but i have no idea...) i've identified a few possibilities:

channel islands vhp2
grado ra1
various ray samuels products

feedback on the above -- or other options -- would be appreciated. thanks.

(btw, i'm using senn 600 cans)

based on Brad other work i have seen, i would defiantly give a look at his amp.

Avenson Audio

[kittonian]

If any of you have yet to check out the SPL Phonitor I strongly recommend it. Truly amazing for headphone monitoring. We've sold quite a few of these already.

Sound Performance Lab (SPL)*-*SPL Phonitor - Pro Audio Sales - AudioLot - 888-224-3343

[jonmoore]

+1 on the Sennheiser HD 650's.

I use them coupled with a Graham Slee headphone Amp - great combination.

Only word of warning, I've read in a few places that newer versions of the 650's have an over compensated bass response. Not something I've encountered but definitely worth checking out if you go down the 650 route.

JM

Leftside Wobble

[bewareofdogs]

IMHO, if you like the Sennheiser hp's, you might consider to go balanced and set up a dedicate system for this task.
In my experience, a balanced HD-650 with the QES Labs HPBA-2 balanced driver, are the best solution to critical headphone monitoring.
The system works in current source mode, and it is well known the advantage of this type of driving over the standard voltage source mode.

(bear in mind that what moves the piston in a speaker is current, not voltage).

Stunning system.

[h4nc0]

Have HD650 here, but I think its sound is overhyped, making everything sounding good. I wouldn't trust it 100%.

[DanDan]

I have used Headphones for critical Mixing and Tracking judgements for decades.
In freelance work, with different sounding rooms and monitors , they are the only safe haven. I use a very early version of the Sennheiser HD480. Can't remember the number, mine are all made from spare parts now. The cable is a right pain, intermittent connection, but the results are immediate and accurate. The Sennheiser HD600 sounds to me like a much finer version with extended bottom and top, but essentially similar.
The sound is neutral, leading to mixes that translate.
Beware of the HD650, I am told it has an enhanced response, i.e. extra bass for the 'hood' and extra sizzle to catch customers.
Grado's I have heard sound bright to me.
The Sony's have loads of Bass and Top, out of control top. Useless for mixing IMHO.
Go Sennheiser.
With my longterm Can fetish, I have of course studied Headphone Amps.
The choices are very poor and very limited.
One can buy a device that does absolutely everything from Samson or Behringer,
with very poor sound.
On the other had there are the expensive Audiophile ones with unbalanced inputs, no facilities whatsoever, and generally excellent sound.
I have noticed-
The O2R one was stellar.
The Rane one is excellent, but difficult to install without hum. Maybe the new version is balanced, with More Me? If so this is a great choice.
I have preferred the Cans output from a decent Sony Hi Fi amp for mixing in recent times. I have two DACS Headlites, Mark 1 and 2.
These are excellent. My Mark 2 was custom modified at DACS to provide More Me, plus balanced inputs. The Mark 1 served me well for years with great client satisfaction, but the Mark 2 sound is the best I have heard.

DanCan :-)

DD

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

.. the new , expensive HD800s are really "etched" sounding, I could not use them for any extended period of time.

Sounds like you tried a new pair out of the box and didn't allow them to burn in - the concensus of opinion seems to average at about 150 hours.

And the HD 800 are very revealing of the source - both in the amplifier you use and the original material.

I have listened to quite a lot on the HD 800 now.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Sounds like you tried a new pair out of the box and didn't allow them to burn in - the concensus of opinion seems to average at about 150 hours.

And the HD 800 are very revealing of the source - both in the amplifier you use and the original material.

I have listened to quite a lot on the HD 800 now.

Nope....just listened again last night, after a week solid burn in. Opinion is the same. Really etched and "HIFI" sounding...sorta like those EQd mkh800s..yech.

Not natural at all, in my opinion. I am glad you enjoy them, though.

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

id never use any grado anything for monitoring...

too colored, tubby..

AKG 701s are king here with STAX.


my above mentioned Sennheisers have been driven into irrelevance by the above two.. the new , expensive HD800s are really "etched" sounding, I could not use them for any extended period of time.

so..

if you have a lot of money, get Stax

if you have less money and want equal performance to the Stax, get AKG 701s.

Greetings.

I am going to have to concur with my friend Teddy Ray on the 701s. I have those, the ATM 50, and the Senn HD650. The 650 are dull and almost muffled by comparison to the 701s, which sound very accurate. Listening to mixes, they are most representative of what I heard when it was tracked; the 650 throws a blanket over the session. The 701s are not hyped or cut in any region. The ATM 50s are fun, but kinda boomy and slightly bass-heavy. Plus the 701s are very comfy for extended sessions.

As for a headphone amp, I use the Rane for tracking. Very good headroom and nice and clean. When I'm checking mixes or doing some critical listening (or entertaining or inspirational, etc), I use the headphone outs on a Crown D-75. Mmmmm.... headroomy goodness.....
[IMG]******//tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:MfpRzxmC4NaYYM:******//1.bp.blogspot.com/_r-AVu8WfK2c/Rgxl7OX6IOI/AAAAAAAAAB0/nx96hXKkZs4/s320/Homer%2Bdrooling.jpg[/IMG]

Regards,
-0.9

[peterpozorek]

Proline 2500 here for mixing, at 6000khz they tend to be a little saturated(burned) and they made of Kevlar so if you drop them on the hard floor they can crack easily .But i think these are the best ones for mixing or quick-fix-mastering .
I think little less fatiguing then Sennheiser on the long run, make sure you get decent H. amp.
and K-system is must .

[airmate]

it's funny to see how the opinions can differ. some say the 650 sound dull while others claim they would have a hyped top end...

[h4nc0]

Originally Posted by airmate

it's funny to see how the opinions can differ. some say the 650 sound dull while others claim they would have a hyped top end...

hyped top end? 650 is very bass heavy. Maybe you misunderstood me because I said they are overhyped. :P

[Omicron_9]

Originally Posted by airmate

it's funny to see how the opinions can differ. some say the 650 sound dull while others claim they would have a hyped top end...

Noted. I wonder if the 650s are inconsistent? I can tell you mine sound dull; almost clouded.

-0.9

[ohmicide]

i have a pair of the cheaper ones (hfi-550) and they broke around 4 months ago. i had to send them over to them 3 times until they finally fixed them. they have HORRIBLE costumer support.

i told them the left driver was causing distortion and needed to be replaced. first time i sent them they replaced the ear pads and cable, second time they re-soldered connections, and finally the third time they replaced the the driver.

they are still a little faulty and have a tiny bit of distortion if i drive them too loud with bass heavy music.

i've had to deal with beyerdynamic 3 times because i keep breaking my dt-880s. all three times they did exactly what i asked them and replaced the faulty driver. two of those times the problem was just so slight but i'm very picky with those so i sent them im anyways. GREAT costumer service and GREAT technical support. i actually spoke to the owner of sound surgeon and he was awesome to deal with. FAST shipping too, last time i had a problem the headphones went and came back in a week.

some might say this is -moaning zone- material but i just wanted to share my experience. i am happy with both my headphones, they're both useful in their own right. i use the ultrasone for record (a little bass heavy but higher impedance) and the beyer for mixing (semi-open and near-perfect response).

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by bewareofdogs

IMHO, if you like the Sennheiser hp's, you might consider to go balanced and set up a dedicate system for this task.
In my experience, a balanced HD-650 with the QES Labs HPBA-2 balanced driver, are the best solution to critical headphone monitoring.

Hi!

You would need an EQ to tame the exagerated bass as well. Monitors should be neutral, 650's isn't. I'd say HD600 is better suited to critical work even though they are slightly shy in the low bass. I have both myself.

The system works in current source mode, and it is well known the advantage of this type of driving over the standard voltage source mode.

Nope. Allthough there can be an advantage with current drive in a big part of a electrodynamic transducers range you can not just mix and match as you please. The system must be designed to work together or you will get a completely different frequency response.

99% of all speakers and headphones are made to be driven by an aproximate voltage source with low impedance output for example the 2 ohm amp you linked to.

(bear in mind that what moves the piston in a speaker is current, not voltage).

Few speakers and headphones uses something that resembles a piston, that said whenever you have current you have voltage.. ;-)

Stunning system.

I'm sure! :-)


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Omicron_9

Noted. I wonder if the 650s are inconsistent? I can tell you mine sound dull; almost clouded.

-0.9

Most users report the same. I have measured the 600 and 650 and my findings explains the impressions and also matches the measurements on headphone.com.

HD650 need a low Q cut between 60Hz-300Hz or so, that way they really shine.

I have posted the measurements here on GS, search and you'll find.


Edit: Corrected a typo, it's the 650 that needs a cut.


/Peter

[ROCKER STUDIOS]

+10 Senn. 650

[Canopus]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Hi!

Nope. Allthough there can be an advantage with current drive in a big part of a electrodynamic transducers range you can not just mix and match as you please. The system must be designed to work together or you will get a completely different frequency response.

99% of all speakers and headphones are made to be driven by an aproximate voltage source with low impedance output for example the 2 ohm amp you linked to.

Yes, that is why that system is specified to drive high ohm cans.
This is what the company told me when I was gathering info on their stuff.
2 ohm... if you're referring to the pdf brochure, I think there is a typo, it should be 2K ohms, it is an audio current source.

Few speakers and headphones uses something that resembles a piston, that said whenever you have current you have voltage.. ;-)

I think he did mean the piston model, and sure when you have current you have voltage, anyway bewareofdogs' statement is absolutely true.
Is the current which directly controls the acceleration of the piston model.

Originally Posted by bewareofdogs

In my experience, a balanced HD-650 with the QES Labs HPBA-2 balanced driver, are the best solution to critical headphone monitoring.
The system works in current source mode, and it is well known the advantage of this type of driving over the standard voltage source mode.

(bear in mind that what moves the piston in a speaker is current, not voltage).

Stunning system.

They suggest a range of Hi-Z hp's.
I was thinking of the 600-ohm Beyerdynamic DT-880, they have a balanced version too.

I think those are ruler flat in their frequency response.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Canopus

Yes, that is why that system is specified to drive high ohm cans.
This is what the company told me when I was gathering info on their stuff.
2 ohm... if you're referring to the pdf brochure, I think there is a typo, it should be 2K ohms, it is an audio current source.

I think you are mistaken. A current drive system needs a tight spec to function as intended, otherwise you have no idea of what frequency response you end up with. There is nothing on the site or pdf that indicates a high impedance output stage.

On the contrary they say:

Fully balanced (symmetrical) low impedance noise free output

In the pdf:

Input (xlr) impedance 2.2K ohms

Output impedance 2 ohms

Seems like you mixed up input impedance with output.

Also you say that the system is desinged to drive high impedance headphones which is not correct either according to the site. A minimum of 200 ohm is mentioned which can be considered a medium impedance load.

Everything indicates the outputs are voltage sources as are most amps on the market. Current sources are often used in the circuitry that bias the active devices but that does not turn the output into a current source or current drive with high impedance.


/Peter

[loglady]

+1 AKG 701's. I love mine, very accurate. Good value too.
300 hour burn in though

-Yolk

[bewareofdogs]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I think you are mistaken. A current drive system needs a tight spec to function as intended, otherwise you have no idea of what frequency response you end up with. There is nothing on the site or pdf that indicates a high impedance output stage.

I have tried that system in a studio where a friend works.
It was some time ago. The phones were Beyerdynamic DT-880 600, ordered from manufaktur and recabled for balanced operation.
I read (manual) it is a current source and has a high output-Z, that is why they recommend the 600 ohm version.

That company (QES Labs) specialises in custom units.
Perhaps they sell different versions of that amp.
Actual amp is a current source.

[Marineville]

I use Sennheiser 650s through a Dangerous Monitor ST. Amazing, clean, revealing sound. I monitor on K+H 0300Ds and find the Dangerous/650 combination very close soundwise.

Love the 650s to bits. Wouldn't mix on them though ...

[madbulk]

Everything sounds colored or hyped to somebody, don't it? I don't like the grado's I've put on. Tubby is pretty much what I'd have said too. But it could definitely be me.
I'm an ultrasone guy. With the grace? Forget it. I'd be very happy.
But you can't have gleaned ANYTHING from this thread, eh? You had Ultrasone v Senn's and you still do. Let us know which you pick.

[hipass]

These are what you want for mixing AKG K 1000 Professional Headphones - Rare - eBay (item 150362287255 end time Aug-04-09 16:36:37 PDT)

[sahiaman]

I haven't used anything other than Ultrasone 650's for a while now. Even when I head to other studios I always take the 650's with me. They are the ones in the Ultrasone line with the gold drivers, the titanium line are a bit too fatiguing for me.