High End Summing box

[MainTime]

What summing mixer better?

InnerTube Audio Atomic Sumthang
Dangerous 2 Bus
Phoenix Audio Nicerizer 16
Inward Connections Mix690

I like vintage Helios and Neve character at analog summing.

[jordanvoth]

Lots of people say Rascal Audio's tonebuss. I'm getting one in a month, if you don't like you got a month to return it. Talk to Joel Cameron, he will tell you way more than I can, he's a great guy.

[dhiltonlittle]

I did a lot of testing when I settled on the Fat Bustard.

The chandler is great and the shadow hills unit is great.

None of the others really did it for me and I tested a lot.

But the Bustard won the battle!

[Doc_]

Originally Posted by MainTime

What summing mixer better?

InnerTube Audio Atomic Sumthang
Dangerous 2 Bus
Phoenix Audio Nicerizer 16
Inward Connections Mix690

I like vintage Helios and Neve character at analog summing.

"Neve character" would be a Neve,but a close contender is the Great River Mixmaster 20...it has "the sound"

peace

[kellyd]

It may not be Neve character but I wouldn't rule out the Tonelux OTB16.

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by MainTime

What summing mixer better?

InnerTube Audio Atomic Sumthang
Dangerous 2 Bus
Phoenix Audio Nicerizer 16
Inward Connections Mix690

I like vintage Helios and Neve character at analog summing.

If you like the Neve character BAE has an 8 channel mixer that could be perfect..! Awesome piece!
Or a small analog console.. Not neveish, but still great, like a Studer 169..(or a 961)

Just my 0.02$,

Bests,

Cheu

[salomonander]

i dont know every summing box out there. but most. and none is high end. most are passive mixers with a stereo make up stage. a rip off so to say. if there is a company featuring in- and output transformers per channel it might qualify. but i dont know of any (the chandler maybe?). otherwise please stay away and get some better mics instead. way better investement!

[xavi]

There's been lots of talk about passive & active summing mixers in a few threads recently, just for the record the Nicerizer is an active summing mixer. It doesn't have Class A discrete transformer balanced inputs but has our electronically balanced input stage and our customed wound transformer on the outputs coupled with a Class A discrete output stage.


Any questions as ever


robin@phoenixaudio.net

[always_ending]

I currently have a Dangerous 2 bus LT, and I can tell you from experience, they make a HUGE difference in the mix.

The lows are much fatter/warmer and the highs are much smoother, they don't "pierce" your ears. The stereo imaging is also much better than ITB.

This weekend I actually went to a friends studio and brought my 2 bus to show him the difference. We took a song that he had mixed completely ITB with PT9 and made a CD of the song straight signal processing through the computer. Then we made another CD where we routed out buss mixes the way we wanted out of his Aurora 16 converter into the 2 bus. After the 2 bus we "kissed" the mix lightly with a Vintech 609a compressor since it's a smoother/slower attacking comp getting around 4db of reduction at the peaks, and sent that straight to an Alesis CD burner.

End results were night/day and we both picked out the best sounding mix, which was the 2 bus without looking at the CD labeling. Even my girlfriend picked out the 2 bus as sounding better to her when I brought the CD's home and listened on my home theater.



GOOD Summing mixers are COMPLETELY worth ever penny spent, regardless of whether or not they might have transformers.... IMO, we shouldn't be talking about whether or not they have transformers in these boxes, but if these boxes IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY.... the #1 reason for any of these discussions no?

I'm not sure what's "in" my Dangerous 2 bus, but I can tell you how much it improves the sound, and I won't ever again mix down to anything BUT a summing mixer if I'm not using a console to mix.

Now, to discuss Summing mixers.... you want the Neve sound? Just buy the Neve summing mixer

Neve 8816 Summing Mixer | VintageKing.com

16 channels of summing, all have own Cue, Level, Pan, Solo and Mute controls.. much more control over the analog mixing than the Dangerous, tho it also costs almost 3 X's the price (you get what you pay for ladies ).

Whenever I'm in the market to buy another summing mixer, which will be quite awhile as I'm gathering much more needed gear than a duplicate of a current piece, I'll most likely buy this one here.

[sergioelectro]

Originally Posted by always_ending

I currently have a Dangerous 2 bus LT, and I can tell you from experience, they make a HUGE difference in the mix.

The lows are much fatter/warmer and the highs are much smoother, they don't "pierce" your ears. The stereo imaging is also much better than ITB.

This weekend I actually went to a friends studio and brought my 2 bus to show him the difference. We took a song that he had mixed completely ITB with PT9 and made a CD of the song straight signal processing through the computer. Then we made another CD where we routed out buss mixes the way we wanted out of his Aurora 16 converter into the 2 bus. After the 2 bus we "kissed" the mix lightly with a Vintech 609a compressor since it's a smoother/slower attacking comp getting around 4db of reduction at the peaks, and sent that straight to an Alesis CD burner.

End results were night/day and we both picked out the best sounding mix, which was the 2 bus without looking at the CD labeling. Even my girlfriend picked out the 2 bus as sounding better to her when I brought the CD's home and listened on my home theater.



GOOD Summing mixers are COMPLETELY worth ever penny spent, regardless of whether or not they might have transformers.... IMO, we shouldn't be talking about whether or not they have transformers in these boxes, but if these boxes IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY.... the #1 reason for any of these discussions no?

I'm not sure what's "in" my Dangerous 2 bus, but I can tell you how much it improves the sound, and I won't ever again mix down to anything BUT a summing mixer if I'm not using a console to mix.

Now, to discuss Summing mixers.... you want the Neve sound? Just buy the Neve summing mixer

Neve 8816 Summing Mixer | VintageKing.com

16 channels of summing, all have own Cue, Level, Pan, Solo and Mute controls.. much more control over the analog mixing than the Dangerous, tho it also costs almost 3 X's the price (you get what you pay for ladies ).

Whenever I'm in the market to buy another summing mixer, which will be quite awhile as I'm gathering much more needed gear than a duplicate of a current piece, I'll most likely buy this one here.

So your opinion to take the advantage of the summing boxes we need to stay analog till the end ?

Sergio

[elamberth]

I certainly don't know all summing mixers, really just one. The speck x-sum. Really, really nice. I generally track just with a cue mix ITB then a stereo out of the speck. When I then mix I switch to all mixing through the speck & notice a big improvement in clarity, imaging, bigness & quality everytime. Easy. Not subtle. Was interested in the Neve, but was steered toward the [cheaper] speck by the dealer & worth every penny for me! Maybe I just don't know how to mix ITB, but I don't care. This works for me.

[Stéphane]

Can someone post some A/B with Rascal summing box and ITB summing ?
Thanks.

[always_ending]

Originally Posted by sergioelectro

So your opinion to take the advantage of the summing boxes we need to stay analog till the end ?

Sergio

Exactly Sergio, the whole entire point of using the summing box is to come out of your computer DAW, that has "internal compression" when you bounce down a mix, and keep the signal analog all the way until your final mix, whether that's straight onto a dedicated hard drive like the Glyph's, or a HD DVD/CD burner.

I would recommend the TASCAM DV-RA1000 HD, it's a nice piece of equipment that has balanced XRL inputs and outputs(for monitoring). It has a hard drive which you can record to, or just burn the songs onto a CD/DVD.

TASCAM DV-RA1000 HD | Sweetwater.com

You send that stereo 2 bus mix to a ME, and he'll take care of the rest, the IIRC coding, track volume leveling for the entire project, finalizing limiting, eq, etc as needed.

But even if you're not taking it to a ME and not using this project for commercial use/sales..... you'll notice the difference in the mix big time! And of course, if you wanted to at the end of the 2 bus you can do the eq, compression, limiting, etc yourself if you choose to do so. Just note that most good ME's have far better equipment to monitor the signal and can really put the "polish" needed for a professional sounding completed project

[IM_]

Wolk Recording from Latvia make a great analog summing box.

[Davido]

Fat bustard.

By a mile.

[MainTime]

What better Phoenix Nicerizer 16 or Dangerous 2Bus?

[Doc Mixwell]

Sure a DSD recorder might sound half way decent coming off the inputs, but then you gotta get the material back to 16/44.1 for CD quality anyway, so while it might sound good coming back off the box, your doing more conversion.

I have no problem dumping my mix down back into a quality ADC @ 44.1khz sample rate in my Pro Tools session. And I like the fact that I can punch parts of the mix [in my session] if I needed to change a cue, here and there. Comes in handy while yer working. Can't do that with a dsd....

.....DSPdoc has tested, evaluated, used, beaten up - every "summing" product on the market against the Great River MM20, and hands down, it is the one to rule them all, with features, sonics, workflow....no contest.

All these flavors are nice, but you just about have to have something else with many of them, as they almost border on "processing" rather than put a small format console in front of you. They are too specific in layout, sound and operation to even think about covering the same ground as the MM20 does.

[nickmoon]

I've owned several over here. Use the Dangerous for Stems. Super transparent but with a good 3D depth to it.

Manley 16x2. Good but, can be a bit "soft" .. Acoustic music OK, heavy stuff nope.

Shadow Hills Equinox, very cool, lots of "tone" but if you don't have at least 24 outs I'd be careful. No way to "mute" channels not in use. Really great gritty rock box.

[sergioelectro]

I am reallyy wondering about that rascal

I am looking for colour and massive weight

There is ofcourse the Chandler minimixer ... but expensive

[spektor]

About weight i wold have to say the mixmaster 20 i changed that from my Spl mixdream. It has a heavy sound that is rock hard colored yet clean depends how you push it..I would say it is a small format recording console...
with 4 mic pres i love this thing and it sound ****ing great

[MainTime]

It's very interesting to see interiors Rascal Audio ToneBus. Many manufacturers use the elementary schemes and cheap components but sell them for the big money. I do not want to be deceived once again.

[MainTime]

Listen now samples of ToneBuss.
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...vs-16-out.html
OTB mixes sound more widely. This summer box consist of stereo expander . 60 percent on sides between OTB and ITB big difference!!! DrMs good tool for check my comment.

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by nickmoon

Shadow Hills Equinox, very cool, lots of "tone" but if you don't have at least 24 outs I'd be careful. No way to "mute" channels not in use. Really great gritty rock box.

I'm wondering how significant this actually is. Is there any noise of significance introduced? If so, I have yet to notice.
I ask because I'm not sure. I'm sure Peter would have the answer.

I'm only summing 8 out to Equinox with the record I'm trying to finish now.
I know that's somewhat limiting it's potential, just what I have at this time.
I still find the SH width / depth to be significantly appreciable IME.
I do plan to jump up to at least 16 DA's asap though.

[jac]

Used and checked many summing boxes. I ended with a 32 ssl xrack. Tight low end, detailed mid and the master section is really good, especially the chance to run the insert in parallel with the output.

[nickmoon]

Yeah Peter would be the guy. Very helpful. For me, I look at it like mixing on a console, if I have a 80 channel SSL and am using 40 channels I don't put the other 40 channels not in use at unity. This will only add noise. Is it a big problem no, is it worth utilizing the remaining channels yes. Just my opinion.
Using 24 channles on the Equinox sounds fantastic.

Originally Posted by chet.d

I'm wondering how significant this actually is. Is there any noise of significance introduced? If so, I have yet to notice.
I ask because I'm not sure. I'm sure Peter would have the answer.

I'm only summing 8 out to Equinox with the record I'm trying to finish now.
I know that's somewhat limiting it's potential, just what I have at this time.
I still find the SH width / depth to be significantly appreciable IME.
I do plan to jump up to at least 16 DA's asap though.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by salomonander

i dont know every summing box out there. but most. and none is high end. most are passive mixers with a stereo make up stage. a rip off so to say. if there is a company featuring in- and output transformers per channel it might qualify. but i dont know of any (the chandler maybe?). otherwise please stay away and get some better mics instead. way better investement!

Ever heard of the fat bustard? Ever used the Chandler TG mixer?

I really don't think you've got enough experience to make a valid comment.

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Ever heard of the fat bustard? Ever used the Chandler TG mixer?

I really don't think you've got enough experience to make a valid comment.

oh...i think i really have enough experience to make a valid point my friend. and if you'd be patient enough to read my post you would know that i have not tried the chandler and actually mentioned that it might be "done properly". and no, i do not know the fat bustard. maybe its great.

[John_Seward]

It's 2011. If you can't make a record sound great ITB you're out. That's what I've been told.

[stevegries]

I have the Neve 8816 and 8804 fader pack and love them. Whether its *summing* sounds "better" than ITB summing is debatable and partly subjective IMO. Overall, mixes definitely sound different (at the very least, probably because of the transformers in the output section), and I like the difference it makes.

But I also like it for features it has beyond summing.... Its insert is great if you want to strap a nice outboard eq or compressor across the bus. And I like that the insert can be blended, so you can get aggressive with the outboard and blend it in to taste.

I also love that it has talkback (I think the Great River is one of the only other "summing" units that has this), and that with the fader pack it has direct outs and a send for each channel. It's fun to be able to use a single outboard reverb that way - whether or not a plug-in can faithfully replicate an outboard unit is not always the point. Sometimes the change in workflow of having an outboard unit and physical knobs for the sends can be inspiring in itself.

It's also easy to set up a cue mix with it. I even appreciate its 1/8 inch input on the front which makes it simple to instantly pop in a client's iPod or laptop if we need to reference something quickly.

Anyway, my point is, the unit sounds good, and is a useful studio tool beyond its summing, providing other practical functionality as well. I'm not claiming it's better or worse than any of the other units mentioned in this thread (I don't have experience with many of them), but for the $2500 it seems to go for on the used market, I think it's a great studio tool.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by always_ending

I After the 2 bus we "kissed" the mix lightly with a Vintech 609a compressor since it's a smoother/slower attacking comp getting around 4db of reduction at the peaks, and sent that straight to an Alesis CD burner.

End results were night/day and we both picked out the best sounding mix, which was the 2 bus without looking at the CD labeling.

Adding that compressor will make way more difference than the 2-buss. I'm guessing that's what accounted for the difference. I mean, 4db peak reduction is very audible, not to mention the electronics of the box. I sent back my D 2B because it really made no difference in and of itself.

-R