API Opamp test

[andrew montreal]

Hi there all once again,

So I just did a test with some new gear and I'd like to share it with you. I replaced the opamps on two of the channels of my API 3124 with Liebers SL-2520's.

For the test I multi-tracked a four-part harmony vocal line. Each part was recorded simultaneously with two identical mics (my Heyne-modded u87's) glued to each other around a foot from my mouth. To avoid any issue of potential differences in the two mics, I purposefully switched them after the first two passes so that whatever difference in tone they may impart will be equal on both recordings. I tried to set it up so that what you are hearing are the exact same performances with only the opamps being different.

Within Logic, I normalized all clips so that any slight variation in level would be compensated for. I then brought the tracks down around 12dB's and panned them. On the master output, I used the Ozone plugin to EQ slightly and limit.

The first half of the recording is version one, the second half is version two. I put them in the same clip so that you don't have to click any buttons between the two versions. The difference is subtle but it's there.

I'm not particularly interested in guessing games, though if that interests you please do so. I'm more curious about how you feel about the two versions.

Thanks.

Andrew

[NathanEldred]

I'm guessing version 1 ends around 15 sec? The difference is definitely subtle, almost so subtle that I'm wondering if I'm fooling myself in hearing any small difference (admitedly just HD280s through laptop). But v2 might be a bit more compressed sounding and maybe slightly rounder, but we're talking 3% here. v1 sounds maybe more detailed and resonant, which is maybe more impressive for a single track, but I think v2 will fit in a mix with other instruments better. Again, maybe they are both the same and there is no difference(!!).

[Tubthumper]

I find it hard to judge unless I can do a direct A/B, but I'm feeling like version 2 might be a little crispier up top. Both sounds more than usable though.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Tubthumper

I find it hard to judge unless I can do a direct A/B, but I'm feeling like version 2 might be a little crispier up top. Both sounds more than usable though.

I don't like vocals ran through a 2500, hard for me to judge.

[zodiaque]

first part sounds smoother in the upper mids to me.

if the sl-2520 is similar to the gar2520 (which i have), then i'd say first part is sl-2520.

thanks for the shootout!

[dysenterygary]

I like the second half the best. A little cleaner sounding, and maybe a little more bass? I definitely like it better than the first half though.

[v.D.o]

The first one 15 second were the best for my ears.. I agree with someone up top that maybe the 2nd set might fit better in a mix.. but the first past was more musical on it own. !!

[skybluerental]

the 2nd version sounds better to me and i am guessing that one is the SL Red Dots.

[cheu78]

The difference with different opamps are subtle, there's but it's really subtle..

If you change the api input and the output xformers with some cinemags you'll get more audible results..especially in the low end (IMO way better and bigger)..
btw that is not an inexpensive mod.. they will cost you around 50$ each..
But always IMO is what api should put in their preamps instead of the cheaper alternatives..

Personally I'll be glad to pay 100$ more per channel (even if a big company could get way better prices than you buying 2 xformers, so you'll probably end up paying 70-80$ more per channel) but having the quality Api was known for.

If all this is worthed it's up to you.. (for me it is).




just my 0.02$,

Ciao

Cheu

[superwack]

Originally Posted by andrew montreal

On the master output, I used the Ozone plugin to EQ slightly and limit.

Hey Andrew, really appreciate the test not sure which one I prefer.

I can't understand why you would put Ozone on it (?!?!) the difference between same-family opamps is going to be really, really subtle and will involve slight frequency response shifts/transient compression, etc. any EQ or (especially) limiting completely clouds the results.

Any chance you could re-post without ANYTHING on the mix?

[andrew montreal]

Originally Posted by cheu78

The difference with different opamps are subtle, there's but it's really subtle..

If you change the api input and the output xformers with some cinemags you'll get more audible results..especially in the low end (IMO way better and bigger)..

Is it a complex process to replace the transformers on a 3124?

[API Sez...]

Originally Posted by cheu78

The difference with different opamps are subtle, there's but it's really subtle..

If you change the api input and the output xformers with some cinemags you'll get more audible results..especially in the low end (IMO way better and bigger)..
btw that is not an inexpensive mod.. they will cost you around 50$ each..
But always IMO is what api should put in their preamps instead of the cheaper alternatives..

Personally I'll be glad to pay 100$ more per channel (even if a big company could get way better prices than you buying 2 xformers, so you'll probably end up paying 70-80$ more per channel) but having the quality Api was known for.

If all this is worthed it's up to you.. (for me it is).




just my 0.02$,

Ciao

Cheu

Don't know where you are getting your information - we haven't seen you in the production/assembly area at API. How do you know API is using cheaper alternatives?

We spend a tremendous amount of time and energy keeping the heritage and tradition of this company as current and accurate as possible. And that includes transformers.

We'll raise your 0.02$

[rob61]

Since I use Liebers SL-2520's in some of my stuff, I'm going to guess the second half is the Liebers SL-2520's. The second half has more upper end clarity. That can be good or bad, but there is a bit more hype in the high end on the second half.

[johnnyc]

V2 sounds a little louder/more compressed. Both sound good, perhaps a slight preference towards V1.

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by andrew montreal

Is it a complex process to replace the transformers on a 3124?

I changed xformers in the 512.. (it should be the same in the 3124)
It's not rocket science but you need to know what you're doing.. As everything else..

Ciao
Cheu

[Eganmedia]

Originally Posted by superwack

Hey Andrew, really appreciate the test not sure which one I prefer.

I can't understand why you would put Ozone on it (?!?!) the difference between same-family opamps is going to be really, really subtle and will involve slight frequency response shifts/transient compression, etc. any EQ or (especially) limiting completely clouds the results.

Any chance you could re-post without ANYTHING on the mix?

Maybe Ozone plugs do a lot of damage to a signal. I dunno. I do remember a time though when GS members had a field day with audiophile's reports of needing to make sure outlet sockets were equally tight in order to compare the difference in sound between two different high-end IEC power cables. This demand smacks of that. I've had difficulty in finding people who could reliably pick which good mic preamplifier was which in a blind test. Swapping out a clone op amp in the same well designed circuit can only make that more difficult. If any EQ or compression on a naked vocal track nullifies the difference, is the difference really worth considering? I can only imagine the difference between two performances would be greater than what the opamps could show. The difference between two singers would be much greater. The effect of a full mix would almost certainly mask any difference completely.

I get the academic component. I just don't get the religious component. Is there really a situation imaginable where someone would listen to two identically mastered identical mixes of the same song and think, "Geez, I really should have used the other op amp in the preamplifier on that harmony vocal track!"?

I gotta go polish my Shakti Stones.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[superwack]

Way to overreact! No one is "demanding" anything from anyone - it was a simple request from someone who appreciated the topic and the effort of the OP.

If you don't care or you can't hear the difference between preamps or it doesn't matter to you then don't play along... Honestly it's like going on a high-end cooking site and telling people who's passion is cooking they are wasting their lives trying different kinds of salt when, after all, they will all be "salty" to one degree or another!

[abechap024]

I like these kind of tests, maybe it wouldnt pass ULs team for scientific integrity, but hey we record music and that is pretty far from a laboratory most the time. Give us a good idea of the different sounds. 2 definitely has some more harmonics going on. I like.

[andrew montreal]

As was requsted, here are the same tracks without any effects whatsoever. And by the way, just for the record these are the EXACT same performances in both cases.

[andrew montreal]

Originally Posted by Eganmedia

I get the academic component. I just don't get the religious component. Is there really a situation imaginable where someone would listen to two identically mastered identical mixes of the same song and think, "Geez, I really should have used the other op amp in the preamplifier on that harmony vocal track!"?

Hey there bro,

I totally get where you're coming from. Of course the differences aren't night and day and so in reality it isn't a drastic issue that will make or break a recording. You make the conclusion you want about what you hear. I hear a difference and I'm glad I did the test. Did I learn something? Yes. Do I prefer the Liebers opamps? Yes. Is the difference one that will make we want to change the other opamps on my other two channels? No, there are other things I'd rather do at this point in time.

It's all education, my friend. En passant, the shakti stone comment was hilarious. Thanks for that one.

[George Necola]

No. But why would you do that? The API sound is good. If you dont like it, buy the 999 alternative preamps.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Gearslutz.com App

[andrew montreal]

FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED:

In the first posting, the first version was the stock opamps, the second version was the SL-2520's.

[andrew montreal]

Originally Posted by George Necola

No. But why would you do that? The API sound is good. If you dont like it, buy the 999 alternative preamps.

I am looking at ways of improving elements in the preamps that I have which bother me. The way this mod was described seemed to do what I was looking for without having to spend another $1000+ per channel. I hope that explains it.

[dysenterygary]

On your second set of clips I think the differences are larger, and I still prefer the second one the best. Thanks for posting!

[farhadkd]

Originally Posted by API Sez...

Don't know where you are getting your information - we haven't seen you in the production/assembly area at API. How do you know API is using cheaper alternatives?

We spend a tremendous amount of time and energy keeping the heritage and tradition of this company as current and accurate as possible. And that includes transformers.

We'll raise your 0.02$

WELL SAID!!

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by andrew montreal

FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED:

In the first posting, the first version was the stock opamps, the second version was the SL-2520's.

Wow, thanks for doing this
john

[johnnyc]

Without the effects I still hear the same differences. Still subtle, and still a slight preference for V1.

Andrew, any plans to try any different opamps? The Gar perhaps?

[andrew montreal]

Originally Posted by johnnyc

Without the effects I still hear the same differences. Still subtle, and still a slight preference for V1.

Andrew, any plans to try any different opamps? The Gar perhaps?

If someone is willing to send me a couple I'll do the test. Right now, in terms of investment I'm looking at tube pres.

[dandeurloo]

Good examples. I picked v2 right away. It is a really good sample of how I feel Red Dots are so much more musical. Imagine if you had twice as many tracks, how much more lush and full those would sound. Then what it would sound like if you had the larger track count of current pop productions. What some call subtle starts to become very easy to hear if not already in these sample.

Andrew thanks for doing this. It helped me remember why I switched out all my op amps.

[abechap024]

I wouldn't be surprised it the input transistor pair/other components in the SL's aren't matched as closely as the API leading to more of the 2nd harmonic distortion that makes the SLs sound "louder" and more juicey.

Not trying to say this was an accident. Just saying it is probably done intentionally.

I prefer the SLs. But would I want that juicy color on everything?? Yea probably!