Best Vocal Chain for thin powerful male voice?

[little izzi]

Hi,
I am getting very good results with my vocal chain for many artists (good all round chain) but my main and most important artist has had me puzzled.... For years now!
His voice can only be discribed as a cross between: MJ, Jamiroquai, sting, and stevie wonder but possibly thiner than these named when he pushes it (which he does... alot!).
The main trouble is that when he pushes/strains his voice right next to me, it sounds as it should yet when we record, It never quite sounds that good? Very brittle and sharp sounding!
The chain I'm using at the moment is:

U87 Ai MT Mic,

Neve 1073 Pre,

La2a Comp,

RME AD/DA using optical in/outs to

Digidesign 96 io into

protools hd 2 or

Logic.

(p.s. I have fully treated, tried and test vocal both)

I have tried many different things to no avail and I know that I'm comparing to a vocal genious with all the budget in the world but when MJ pushed his voice it sounded very listenable and warm, I'm aware there would be certain amounts of post vocal tweaking but also aware that MJ's vocal chain would've sounded very good and pleasent on the way in too... I hope
I know how to repair a bad sounding vocal to a certain extent and have spent a great deal of time tweaking in the box which is fine but I'm to the point where I want to know if i can get a chain that sounds fat and full already, which I'm sure is possible but I'm losing my mind now
Any advise welcome, especially if any of you have had similar problems?
I could maybe send a clip to anyone who has had a similar problem?
Thanks guys
izzi

[Eisbude]

You have everything what you need.

[jlsgear]

The biggest difference you'll ever hear to a vocal will always be in the mic selection ... the rest of your chain is rock solid for this vocal type I'd think.

So if you can borrow, or rent, a collection of different mics that would be the way to go ...

Another option - would be to throw up a RIBBON mic next to the 87 ... record the 2 mics to seperate tracks .. and later combine/mix the 87 AND the ribbon to taste ... it can be a cheap ribbon by the way ...

Imho it works well - and you'll find for the parts where he's 'pushing' it that you'll mix in more of the ribbon.

J.

[AB3]

An AEA R84 ought to thicken it. On the high end cost, a wunder cm7 might work (but that is a shameless plug since I am selling one).

For eq - an a designs hammer maybe sweeter (though not thicker) than the neve.

Least expensive initial solution: AEA R84.

Good luck!

AB

[Slikjmuzik]

If he's really getting that thin when belting, why not try switching to a 47'ish type of mic?

[Remy Leloup]

Take a Korby blue , a Miktek CV4 , a Bock 507 , there you are with 3 fabulous mocs with 3 ranges of prices ( from 1400 to 3400 to 5500) , then if it's wrong change the man behind the microphone ...

[yotonic]

I know this may seem like an "unwanted" suggestion. But if you work with him a lot I would really recommend a couple of quick SKYPE sessions with a vocal coach.

Your chain is great and my guess is his voice gets thin when pushing because of improper technique. Try this test: have him sing a pushed passage the way he normally does; then ask him to just try it with his tongue pushed forward, almost coming out of his mouth (don't worry about trying to pronounce words) if you and he notice an immediate improvement in tone and body then you should have no problem convincing him to SKYPE a couple sessions with a coach. PM me I can recommend someone.

[Ward Pike]

Ok, working with vocalists and getting the result captured is one of the things I'm most proud of (in my work)... so I'll gladly pitch in here.

First, the microphone you're using can be a little brittle to begin with. A vintage U87 or a Shure SM7 (what both MJ and Stevie Wonder recorded with) might be the best choice.

Secondly, are you warming him up first or does he do his own warm-up routine? The voice quality will change as you go along ESPECIALLY if you don't get him warmed up first.

Third, what is his level like from lower register to "strain" area? If there's a tremendous amount of difference, you'll need to do a couple of things:
a. Make sure he uses good mic technique such as getting in closer for quieter passages and moving back a little (bending from the knees works) as he gets louder.
b. Have him look up as he sings the louder parts (corrects pitch too, but can also open up the throat for a bigger sound)
c. Add a second compressor after the LA2A. Using the LA2a with both knobs on 5. Compress mode. Then run into an 1176ln if you can get your hands on one. Set it at 8:1 input on about 6, output to match your convertors, attack on fastest, release midway. That will fatten up the sound tremendously on louder passages that may be in his "strain" range.

Finally, he may very well have a "peakiness" in his voice as he gets higher. A 2k to 3k presence peak that is heavily exaggerated in the higher range. Try notching this out or even better, using a de-esser set for that range.

Let me know how those thing work out for you.

Best of luck,

Ward

[little izzi]

Thanks for all the constructive responses guys, really given me some food for thought! I'm going to try a few things out, just been looking at the cascade ribbon mics and also trying to arrange a test day with a friend of a friend... He is hopefully going to bring a few mics down to me to test. I think the 1176 idea is an expensive option for me right now but maybe I will build one in the future.
Thanks guys, any other ideas welcome

[chris@theblue]

try a tube mic. or ribbon blend, or omni 3:1

the M.J. Wonder, Sting. . .they sound that way through anything.

i feel for ya. . .it starts with the source.

when the source rocks. . .

good luck.

ah, through more gear at it

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

Ok, working with vocalists and getting the result captured is one of the things I'm most proud of (in my work)... so I'll gladly pitch in here.

First, the microphone you're using can be a little brittle to begin with. A vintage U87 or a Shure SM7 (what both MJ and Stevie Wonder recorded with) might be the best choice.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

First, the microphone you're using can be a little brittle to begin with. A vintage U87 or a Shure SM7 (what both MJ and Stevie Wonder recorded with) might be the best choice.

Ward

No way, I would never switch from a u87ai to an sm7! And the ai is not that brittle compared to a u87, in fact if he's using an LA2A, both of them will sound quite similar in the end result. You're talking as if it's apples and oranges when it clearly isn't. Post some samples! And the sm7 is far more brittle than the u87! I need to get a u87 in my studio to demystify this whole bullshit that is being taught on GS.

[Kwinn]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

And the ai is not that brittle compared to a u87, in fact if he's using an LA2A, both of them will sound quite similar in the end result. You're talking as if it's apples and oranges when it clearly isn't. Post some samples!

nice comparison:

Neumann Microphone Shootout, U87i vs. U87Ai | recording hacks

Best regards, Kwinn

[goldencd]

I would say a 251 style mic is great for what you are talking about. In my experience it tends to smooth the highs from harshness while retaining the openness.

But i guess that is just my opinion on my ears with my mic.

[Ward Pike]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

No way, I would never switch from a u87ai to an sm7! And the ai is not that brittle compared to a u87, in fact if he's using an LA2A, both of them will sound quite similar in the end result. You're talking as if it's apples and oranges when it clearly isn't. Post some samples! And the sm7 is far more brittle than the u87! I need to get a u87 in my studio to demystify this whole bullshit that is being taught on GS.

sigh, no contrary-minded opinion slips by Chris.

[Music Guru]

Try an Sm7b on him with the foam off. And don't listen to it solo, hear it in the mix.
If that nor your U87ai don't work then it's not the mic that's the problem.

[REX]

Like someone posted here earlier, help him with technique if he is a good client and you are looking to forge a long term working relationship. We have to wear many hats in today's marketplace. It will be a lot easier than searching for a magic mic.

[little izzi]

He, is a very good client and has actually said he is getting a good sound using a peluso 22 251 mic in another (bedroom) studio so this is definately a mic I will try out. So as mentioned above a 251 style mic could be an option, I'll post up my conclusions as soon as I have tried some ideas, could take a while!
Thanks guys

[little izzi]

Just a thought, is there any selective type hardware compressors out there that would only compress a selectable frequency?

[_Ludovico]

I have a similar type of voice, quite high pitched and a little on the thin side, and I did some recordings with a u87ai an hated it. So my suggestion, FWIW, is to check for another mic... Since all you have is top notch.

I'm not saying it's a bad mic, but for me, it's a big 0.

I should try the Wunder FET thing...

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

No way, I would never switch from a u87ai to an sm7! And the ai is not that brittle compared to a u87, in fact if he's using an LA2A, both of them will sound quite similar in the end result. You're talking as if it's apples and oranges when it clearly isn't. Post some samples! And the sm7 is far more brittle than the u87! I need to get a u87 in my studio to demystify this whole bullshit that is being taught on GS.

Very forceful there, Chris. I vote U87ai+brittle voice=no no personally, but hey. And now an SM7 is brittle? Mate, what are you on about?

[Blast9]

Post processing idea - add a parallel low passed overdriven version of the track - smooth and fat.

Preamp idea - V72/V76 type pre - nice fattening effect

[AllBread]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

No way, I would never switch from a u87ai to an sm7! And the ai is not that brittle compared to a u87, in fact if he's using an LA2A, both of them will sound quite similar in the end result. You're talking as if it's apples and oranges when it clearly isn't. Post some samples! And the sm7 is far more brittle than the u87! I need to get a u87 in my studio to demystify this whole bullshit that is being taught on GS.

Get an sm7 while you're at it so that you can hear what each mic sounds like before posting so aggressively here. I sold my vintage u87 because I liked the sound I was getting with my scratch takes on a sm7 better on my voice. Doesntbmean it's a better mic, but was better for my situation.

As far as brittle, I wouldn't use that word on any of the above mics but if I was forced to I'd attach it to the ai (have one on loan) long before the sm7.
You're always of the two switches on the back of the sm7 right?

[cortisol]

It sounds like the vocalist needs to drop his larynx to create space during his belting technique. The real answer for your client is to tackle the issues with a vocal coach. But for you as a recordist, selecting a mic that doesn't bring out the harsh frequencies is the way forward. Compressing the vocal will probably just bring out the harshness more and you'll be compounding it with mix bus compression and mastering compression too!

Try also to test different distances between vocalist and mic. Try to place your mic above the height of the mouth so that the bright reflections off the palette of the mouth are not aimed at the mics diaphragm.

It might be that another LDC will be the right compliment to the vocalist or indeed a dynamic moving coil or ribbon. But to pick the right mic will require you to test it on the vocalist you're having problems recording.

[Ron Vogel]

Originally Posted by Ward Pike

sigh, no contrary-minded opinion slips by Chris.

I agree with Chris here...I found the SM7 to be brittle when pushed hard too. I really tried to like it...too much work to get a useable result on high register belt outs.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by jlsgear

Another option - would be to throw up a RIBBON mic next to the 87 ... record the 2 mics to seperate tracks .. and later combine/mix the 87 AND the ribbon to taste ... it can be a cheap ribbon by the way ...

This was exactly my first thought.

Getting it right at the sources is always best, but if you are in a situation where you can't you might want to take a look at the Little Labs VOG which can help a lot for this sort of thing.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by Chris Lago

No way, I would never switch from a u87ai to an sm7!

Even if the SM7 was the better sounding mic on a particular vocalist?

[Larry Villella]

It's pretty difficult to recommend a mic unless you can hear
the actual singer. Do you have any WAV files of your artist ?

Lacking first hand sonic information, the comments lead me to
a preliminary conclusion that a 67 over a 251 flavor may work. . .

BUT - hearing is believing !!

Cheers!

Larry J. Villella, ADK)))

[bluejbill]

The U87ai definitely has some extra upper midrange presence, and while that can be great for male vocalists, it is usually not so hot for sopranos. Not to put down the mike, I have one, and the same thing is often said about U47's. It sounds to me like some of those upper frequencies of your singer are being exaggerated by the mic. Also, they tend to distort in that range when pushed too hard, they are somewhat lacking in headroom.

I would try any mike that is considered to be good for sopranos, that is, with a flatter characteristic up in that range: 251, M49, maybe an old C12 might be worth trying of the high priced tried and true mikes. The best female mike I ever heard was a vintage C24 in mono. And no, these are not girlie mikes!
And BTW I wouldn't suggest a vocal coach to any client I wanted to keep unless they asked me about it!

[little izzi]

Last comment made me laugh! It is a bit worrying when suggesting a vocal coach to a singer you want to keep on your books! To be perfectly honest he's pretty damn good when he sings In the room, those harsh frequencies are somewhat pleasant. So maybe a better mic technique would help if anything? There are some really good ideas and I will be trying some for sure. Ps I'm about to build a pultec eqp1a this may go a little way to eliminating those harsh frequencies but I would probably rather use multiband compression and use the eqp1a for tweaking. That's if it still needs treatment after I choose a new mic etc