Best Vocal Chain for thin powerful male voice?

[cheu78]

I'd try a good old Coles 4038 with the Neve and the LA2A you have...

Just my 0.02$,

Cheu

[AllBread]

And the real answer to the question:

Just eq the damn thing!

If I had to buy a new mic that perfectly matched the voice of every singer that came through the door I'd be in an even shabbier poor house than I'm in now.

It's a lot cheaper to rely on your skills as an engineer to get the right sound than to always be searching for for the perfect piece to accomplish every goal. The more you do it, the better you become, the less gear you'll need and, next thing you know, you'll actually be making a profit in this crazy business!

[mirrorboy]

Originally Posted by little izzi

Hi,
I am getting very good results with my vocal chain for many artists (good all round chain) but my main and most important artist has had me puzzled.... For years now!
His voice can only be discribed as a cross between: MJ, Jamiroquai, sting, and stevie wonder but possibly thiner than these named when he pushes it (which he does... alot!).
The main trouble is that when he pushes/strains his voice right next to me, it sounds as it should yet when we record, It never quite sounds that good? Very brittle and sharp sounding!
The chain I'm using at the moment is:

U87 Ai MT Mic,

Neve 1073 Pre,

La2a Comp,

RME AD/DA using optical in/outs to

Digidesign 96 io into

protools hd 2 or

Logic.

(p.s. I have fully treated, tried and test vocal both)

I have tried many different things to no avail and I know that I'm comparing to a vocal genious with all the budget in the world but when MJ pushed his voice it sounded very listenable and warm, I'm aware there would be certain amounts of post vocal tweaking but also aware that MJ's vocal chain would've sounded very good and pleasent on the way in too... I hope
I know how to repair a bad sounding vocal to a certain extent and have spent a great deal of time tweaking in the box which is fine but I'm to the point where I want to know if i can get a chain that sounds fat and full already, which I'm sure is possible but I'm losing my mind now
Any advise welcome, especially if any of you have had similar problems?
I could maybe send a clip to anyone who has had a similar problem?
Thanks guys
izzi

Hey man,

Listen to Thriving Ivory- I know exactly what you're talking about. On the last record, the song "Where We Belong" had performances from Quad we didn't like. So we ended up using the demo vox just in V1. and V.2, which were done w/ an SM7. The rest of the song is done with a U87.

I've been dealing with this problem for 10 years and know exactly what your talking about. We came to the conclusion that for this singer, a U87 beat anything else. As for "Where We Belong" you can hear the differences in one song. It was mixed and produced by Mark Endert so you he did everything he could to mask the different mic takes.

One other important thing to note is that there was a bit too much compression going in on the SM7 (the verses) but it sounds ok to me.

Hope this can be of some help.

Scott

P.S. Another track to check out is "Angels on the Moon"- that too was done w/ a U87 and mixed by ME. If you like what the mic did to the vocal that could help. At that time, we didn't have access to any super fancy pre's. I can find you for sure what we were using but I'm fairly sure it's no better than what you already have.

P.P.S. The SM7 went to a Vintech Pre and a distressor. If you really need me to, I can ask Mark what the U87 went to. Thx.

[mirrorboy]

Originally Posted by AllBread

And the real answer to the question:

Just eq the damn thing!

If I had to buy a new mic that perfectly matched the voice of every singer that came through the door I'd be in an even shabbier poor house than I'm in now.

It's a lot cheaper to rely on your skills as an engineer to get the right sound than to always be searching for for the perfect piece to accomplish every goal. The more you do it, the better you become, the less gear you'll need and, next thing you know, you'll actually be making a profit in this crazy business!

To be honest, eq can very quickly make voices like this lose their character. In my experience, the right mic and compression is key.

Scott

[little izzi]

I agree Scott, I have used eq along with many other treatments for many years now and actually beleive I'm fairly good at it (in the box, granted) but always felt like every seperate treatment i gave, would also loose an element of richness if i can call it that!? I now seem to find myself believing If I had the perfect vocal chain in things may seem a little richer and easier? I have also studied a few people who have been around and fairly successful for many years in this industry as they have passed through my studio, watching them as they seem to demonstrate how easy this 'can' be with a good vocal chain.... It almost sounds finished with only the limited compression going in (with the right mic, pre, and comp chain). I dont always want the next big thing... just want to concentrate at what im good at a bit more, which is production primarily!

[mirrorboy]

RIght on.

To be honest I think you already have the gear. Use that 87 and go into whatever pre you feel is the warmest, tubiest, etc.....then an la2a with 1or 2 Db gr to get rid of the highest peaks and maybe a FET comp.

Not too much though on the way in. May wanna find the spot where you think it sounds good and back it off a bit on the FET- depending on your room and monitors, it's def. good (and safe) for that matter to have some room. You can always put that comp back on after.

But yeah.....it's really hard what you're trying to do. Probably one of the toughest things in audio next to everything under 500Hz. It's a very delicate balance of compression and very, very, VERY little EQ to the point that the character and high end remains and the vocal still shimmers while not having your ears pierced during those intense parts.

Good luck- I wish you the best!


Scott

P.S. One thing to consider, if you're gonna use a plug, is frequency-conscious compression. And, depending on the source, grabbing and pulling down somewhere b/w 3K and 5K.

[uncle duncan]

I think you're better off choosing a mic that flatters the voice, rather than choosing an EQ curve to pull out unpleasantness recorded by the mic. Perhaps a mic with a dip in the presence range would be a better fit, like a Shure KSM44 (big dip at 7k)? Or a Neumann TLM102 (small dip at 6k)? I don't use the 102 very often, but it is good at softening some harsh voices. I have never used a KSM44, but a female singer brought in some tracks recorded on that mic that made her awful, harsh sounding voice sound positively angelic. I didn't have my 102 at the time, and I was unable to match her vocal sound with the mics at my disposal.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by AllBread

Get an sm7 while you're at it so that you can hear what each mic sounds like before posting so aggressively here. I sold my vintage u87 because I liked the sound I was getting with my scratch takes on a sm7 better on my voice. Doesntbmean it's a better mic, but was better for my situation.

As far as brittle, I wouldn't use that word on any of the above mics but if I was forced to I'd attach it to the ai (have one on loan) long before the sm7.
You're always of the two switches on the back of the sm7 right?

I sold the sm7 that I had, didn't like it.

Originally Posted by Ron Vogel

I agree with Chris here...I found the SM7 to be brittle when pushed hard too. I really tried to like it...too much work to get a useable result on high register belt outs.

Yes definitely, and especially with a Neve pre it could definitely sound mid rangy and bassy.

Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan

Even if the SM7 was the better sounding mic on a particular vocalist?

I would use it for sure, but I don't know if I would since I've never heard the singer in question. It's very hard to say which mic would work if we're not in the same room, but I will say that the chain he has can be made to work, with EQing etc. I just find that switching from u87ai to sm7 is rather drastic. I should post a comparison to really show the differences in sound, it's huge!

Again it's very hard to say. I personally think that with the chain he has, he could make it work for most singers out there, even if it's not a dead on match. I have a similar chain at my private studio and I was able to match it to singers 90% of the time, and I wouldn't say the same with a great mic like the c800g, which can certainly be hit or miss at times.

That being said, I don't know if I'll keep the u87ai, because I am interested in getting a vintage one or a Manley Ref C.

Here's me singing with the u87ai/Ams Neve 1073 DPD/Cl1b/Mytek and the same chain for my Martin D-21 Special. I have a pretty thin voice myself. You be the judge! The shaker and Tambourine was also recorded with the chain.

[little izzi]

Thanks for the song link Chris, however you have a very different voice to this singer, here is a very small clip *NOTE, this was not recorded with my vocal chain*
This clip gives a hint at the type of thing I'm up against.
devil (0m 08s).mp3
Comments please?

[andonwego]

Sorry for resurrecting a dead horse just to beat it again, but these SM7s people aren't liking -- SM7B, SM7A, or SM7?

[Blast9]

You mentioned multiband comp or dynamic Eq earlier- I reckon you should give that a go.

Sounds like quite a narrow band where the strident tone is jumping out.

Hardware -

1) I remember Mike Shipley (shipshape) talking about a dynamic EQ box he used with Mutt Lange.

2) how bout the ADR vocal stressor?

3) comp with EQ in side chain?

4) Empirical Labs Lil freq?

Software -

multiband comp with loads of gain reduction on that set of freqs?

comp/EQ in Side chain as above

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by little izzi

Thanks for the song link Chris, however you have a very different voice to this singer, here is a very small clip *NOTE, this was not recorded with my vocal chain*
This clip gives a hint at the type of thing I'm up against.
Attachment 245720
Comments please?

Ouch! That is a bright voice. Reminds me of that chick singer who sounded so much better on the KSM44. In the meantime, you might try the Nomad Factory Blue Tubes bundle. One of the plugs in that bundle is a 3-band EQ with a compressor on the mid band. The mid band is selectable between 200hz and 7k. I suspect it's a rather wide Q, but it does help to reduce harshness when you dial in the higher frequencies. What's interesting about these dynamic EQ's is that they only kick in when the source gets loud, which coincides with when the singer's voice starts sounding harsh.

I still think a different mic would be the best solution... or teaching the artist how to sing high notes without turning the tone into the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard.

[bluejbill]

Originally Posted by little izzi

Thanks for the song link Chris, however you have a very different voice to this singer, here is a very small clip *NOTE, this was not recorded with my vocal chain*
This clip gives a hint at the type of thing I'm up against.
Attachment 245720
Comments please?

You definitely have a voice with a bit of edge there. Agree that the U87ai will tend to accentuate that, especially when driven hard- it even tends to break up at that frequency when pushed IMHO. But a lot of mikes have a push there- even a U47.

Chris- don't sweat the vintage U87 too much- this is the second thing of yours I've heard with the ai, and it sounds pretty good for you! Maybe a bit more body would help is all. Again IMHO.

[Chris Lago]

Originally Posted by bluejbill

You definitely have a voice with a bit of edge there. Agree that the U87ai will tend to accentuate that, especially when driven hard- it even tends to break up at that frequency when pushed IMHO. But a lot of mikes have a push there- even a U47.

Chris- don't sweat the vintage U87 too much- this is the second thing of yours I've heard with the ai, and it sounds pretty good for you! Maybe a bit more body would help is all. Again IMHO.

Thanks, I removed some body with EQ to push the vocals upfront.

[analogjeff]

i have quite a bit of relevant experience with the issue you describe, and i suggest: the 87ai will never work... i know some say otherwise, but i think they're just too bright and thin on the top to bring fullness to a thin voice... a 67 will definitely do the trick, or even the right older 87 (we have one that works beautifully on thin voices)... the phoenix drs-2 mic pre also works a lot better for us in this situation than the iron in the top end of a 1073...

we use a purple mc77 compressor and love what id does in the thing voice challenge, but an LA2A should do even better if what you want is smooth...

truly, we've tried lots of gear to address the issue you're dealing with, and the best we've ever done is either a borrowed 67 or an owned vintage 87 into the phoenix and purple...

good luck...

[Bob G]

I think the most common male vocal chain for recording is:

U47 > Neve > LA2A


This would be where you might want to start and then see if you need to change anything after you try it.

[salvator]

Hi,

Try off axis mic placement, and position it lower than the mouth , pointing away from the nose, more toward and closer to chest to get more body. Don't be afraid to go far from axis (even if you need at mix time to brighten a lot)
And at mix time, pass again thru 1073/LA2A.

Otherwise, try using 2 mics : the U87, and a ribbon and blend them together. The ribbon will keep the vocal timbre "constant".

Otherwise, try a dynamic mic.

Otherwise, use a dynamic EQ/multiband comp to tame those harmonics peaking around 4-6k, (but this is the least prefered solution because it'll darken the voice and make it sound processed)

Salvator

[ThomasWho]

To the OP, if he sounds good in other parts of the song I`d use automated eq to fix the offending notes . And I`d record him without compression, because frequencies that dominate the sound tend to dominate even more after compression. I`d fix the problem and compress after.

Changing the mic to a dull sounding mic could make the rest of the vocal too dull. And when you brighten in again the problem reappears.

Just my 2 cents,

Thomas