Most transparent Summer / Small mixer
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#1
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #1
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Thread Starter
Most transparent Summer / Small mixer

Hi All,

In your experience what would the above be? I am looking for strictly analog line summing to stereo on location (with pans and level) - 16 channels MAX. I am not interested in anything that imparts tonal character. I am looking for the most depth and detail.

Assume that budget is high-end.

Thanks,
Silas
#2
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #2
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GilWave's Avatar
 

For total transparency, I'd say Dangerous Music, hands down.
#3
14th March 2006
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TEMAS's Avatar
#4
14th March 2006
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GilWave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
That doesn't have level and pan on each channel; though it is very transparent.
It does if you combine it with the Dangerous Mixer.

I have not heard the ADT, so I am not qualified to offer an opinion.

-gil
#5
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

The Speck XSum seems perfect for your application
#6
14th March 2006
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TEMAS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GilWave
It does if you combine it with the Dangerous Mixer.

I have not heard the ADT, so I am not qualified to offer an opinion.

-gil
I haven't heard either of them, so I don't know what that makes me!!


I would like to hear more opinions about the ADT range though, cause it rarely gets a mention on GS.
#7
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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GilWave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
I haven't heard either of them, so I don't know what that makes me!!
I would like to hear more opinions about the ADT range though, cause it rarely gets a mention on GS.
Actually, now that I see their website I remember that I went to their booth last year at AES Barcelona - one of my dealers who saw the Tonelux range thought this was in a similar vein, and brought me over to see it.

It looks decent enough, but it was not really set up to hear it properly. Perhaps if you can get to the Frankfrt MusikMesse later this month, or the AES in Paris in May you can hear it for yourself.

-gil
#8
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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Faderjockey's Avatar
I was going to say XSum... Has anyone heard the Speck?
#9
14th March 2006
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trickydicky's Avatar
 

As far as summing goes, I've used the Tubetech, Folcrom (with Cranesong Flamingo as makeup) and the other day, tested out my mate's SPL Mixdream. The Mixdream is definitely the most transparent out of all of them. Very high headroom too. Mine's on order!
#10
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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electric's Avatar
 

the XSUM rocks. my studio is built around it. ultra transparent. all transients stay preserved. tons of headroom. plus vince has the best product support of any company. you get twice the # of channels than the dangerous 2 bus plus you get panning on each channel pair. nothing touches it within the price.

electric
#11
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS
I would like to hear more opinions about the ADT range though, cause it rarely gets a mention on GS.
I talked with european people (french and german) who are using ADT products (V700/ Integrator module system, or small Broadcast console) and they all are unanimous in saying that they are very high end in build quality and sound with plenty of transparency headroom and musicality. I haven't heard them yet, so I cannot tell more at the moment. Their Integrator module system is of a similar concept to the Tonelux's which I haven't heard neither.

But I "e-talked" to both designers Gerd Jüngling (ADT) and Paul Wolff (Tonelux), and what I can tell you is that Gerd Jüngling is waaayyyy better mannered than P. Wolff. Precisely:
- From G. Jüngling I got some great and kind replies, with plenty of technical details, a.s.o.
- From P. Wolff I got nothing but insults. (sic!)

I really think that ADT might be the way to go, at least in Europe! I will hear some ADT soon, and I'll tell you what I think.
#12
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzoing
- From G. Jüngling I got some great and kind replies, with plenty of technical details,
I've had similar experience in mailing with him, seems a very nice guy with some cool products. Haven't had the chance to test them out yet tho (and price does scare me off a bit, e). ADT is used a lot in German broadcast. Has a name to be very high quality indeed.
#13
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #13
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I too am quite seriously considering a small format broadcast-style ADT console. Now that Studer 961-962 consoles are no longer in production, I believe it is the natural successor. I haven't yet heard one personally, but I got great reports from guys I trust. Agreed with Dzoing, Dr. Gerd Juengling, the designer, has been very kind and helpful whenever I have contacted him.
best regards
Massimo
#14
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
I too am quite seriously considering a small format broadcast-style ADT console. Now that Studer 961-962 consoles are no longer in production, I believe it is the natural successor.
BTW, ADT offer some modules that fit in a Studer 961/962 console frame.
#15
14th March 2006
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TEMAS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzoing

But I "e-talked" to both designers Gerd Jüngling (ADT) and Paul Wolff (Tonelux), and what I can tell you is that Gerd Jüngling is waaayyyy better mannered than P. Wolff. Precisely:
- From G. Jüngling I got some great and kind replies, with plenty of technical details, a.s.o.
- From P. Wolff I got nothing but insults. (sic!)

I really think that ADT might be the way to go, at least in Europe! I will hear some ADT soon, and I'll tell you what I think.
Thanks for that. I also sent and received several emails with Gerd and agree he replies quickly and thoroughly to any enquiry that you have. I have been considering a rack of 8 Toolmod 5-band-EQ's - I'm holding on though, as they will be available to rack vertically soon. At 370 Euros each(+ Rack & PSU), I'm sure without even hearing them that there is nothing remotely in their league at that price (except maybe Raindirk). Tonelux would cost double that price at least. I'd love to hear them up against the Speck and the Summit units.

http://www.audio-net.org/ToolModProAudioGear.html
#16
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #16
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MBishopSFX's Avatar
 

Absolutely the most transparent mix path:

Millennia Media Mix Suite

(especially with the passive input modules)
#17
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
I have never found any Studer console to sound anything close to transparent. Full of color and zeal. Even with massive rebuilding, that -60 db crosstalk sum opamp is rather narrow sounding. The 301A opamps arn't anything to brag about.

Good consoles offer at least -80 db stereo crosstalk. Great ones exceed -90 db. The rest sound mono to me.
This is interresting.

Studer specs say -60 dB crosstalk @15kHz, but I thought that was for their stereo modules with Pan/balance ON. Won't it be better with Pan/balance in OFF position? Is the Buss Master crosstalk also "only" -60dB or is it better?

ADT modules are claimed to offer better than -70dB crosstalk @15kHz (L/R), and better than -85dB @15kHz on independent lines.

Could you give us an example of console /summing box offering better than -90dB @15kHz ?
#18
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

100% Dangerous Music

Both the Dangerous summer and/or the Dangerous Mixer (which does have the functions you requested) were both built with transperency in mind!

Just look inisde one of those things... Man, about a pure a path as possible!

There are great summer and mixers out there, but if your requirments are transperency... DANGEROUS MUSIC 100%.

-andrews

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com
#19
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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junior's Avatar
 

has anyone tried the studio projects sp828 as a summing box yet?
#20
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo
Both the Dangerous summer and/or the Dangerous Mixer (which does have the functions you requested) were both built with transperency in mind!

Just look inisde one of those things... Man, about a pure a path as possible!

There are great summer and mixers out there, but if your requirments are transperency... DANGEROUS MUSIC 100%.

-andrews

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com
I'd also add, look who built the Dangerous mixer, I believe the origns are with Sterling Mastering... it was orignally from mastering and the very idea was THE best pure signal path.

-a
#21
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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TEMAS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by junior
has anyone tried the studio projects sp828 as a summing box yet?
Just looked at that for the first time. Obviously inspired by the 8MX2. Ergonomics are good, individual outputs on each channel. Along with the SM Pro PM8, looks like the start of a low budget tidal wave of summing amps.
#22
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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GYang's Avatar
Mixdream is offered in full and simplified version (I think no limiters and inserts) with same quality.
Definitely transparent and clean, arguably overall better choice to me than Dangerous that is similarly clean, but Mixdream (based on long comparison) still does it task better, especially with dynamic rock and pop tracks.
In same time, although uncoloured, Mixdream gives particular character to tracks, limiter is very welcome and inserts sometime must have.

My advice try all before decision, as tastes could differ significantly.
#23
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #23
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GilWave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzoing
Their Integrator module system is of a similar concept to the Tonelux's which I haven't heard neither.

But I "e-talked" to both designers Gerd Jüngling (ADT) and Paul Wolff (Tonelux), and what I can tell you is that Gerd Jüngling is waaayyyy better mannered than P. Wolff. Precisely:
- From G. Jüngling I got some great and kind replies, with plenty of technical details, a.s.o.
- From P. Wolff I got nothing but insults.
The Tonelux is anything buy transparent, which is why I didn't recommend it.

As for Paul Wolff, I don't know what happened there but he is not in the habit of insulting potential customers. Please keep me in the loop if you ever need any info on Tonelux in the future.

-gil
#24
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzoing
I talked with european people (french and german) who are using ADT products (V700/ Integrator module system, or small Broadcast console) and they all are unanimous in saying that they are very high end in build quality and sound with plenty of transparency headroom and musicality. I haven't heard them yet, so I cannot tell more at the moment. Their Integrator module system is of a similar concept to the Tonelux's which I haven't heard neither.

But I "e-talked" to both designers Gerd Jüngling (ADT) and Paul Wolff (Tonelux), and what I can tell you is that Gerd Jüngling is waaayyyy better mannered than P. Wolff. Precisely:
- From G. Jüngling I got some great and kind replies, with plenty of technical details, a.s.o.
- From P. Wolff I got nothing but insults. (sic!)

I really think that ADT might be the way to go, at least in Europe! I will hear some ADT soon, and I'll tell you what I think.
Let me make a few facts clear on this comment:

First of all, this guy did not ask me anything technical. All he did was make his comment. The entire thread unloaded on him. Because I was directly asked how I would describe it. So yes, I gave him some shit.

Go read the whole thing, you will see how full of crap the comment is, as was the other ones.

It was on the "Tonelux. Paul Wolff.. How would you rate it?" thread

HeyMan asked ME to answer this question:

Quote:
Paul, please toot your own horn here as to where you would put your stuff
on a scale compared to the big boys (Api's Legacy, Trident A- range and the well tuned Neve stuff).. I am talking Headroom, openess, depth, routing and summing quality.
My reply was:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux
I would say that it has the fat bottom of the API, the clear mids of the Neve, but the cool thing is that the high end is unsurpassed.
This this guy responded with this comment, obvously not reading the whole thread:

Quote:
Dozing:
Paul, with all due respect - really - I am not sure I like whenever a designer/builder praises his own stuff so shamelessly. This is not to say things may not be exactly the way you describe them, or better, but...

I second this. If it is the best sounding stuff in the world [which makes no sens BTW -- I don't know what is an "unsurpassed high end"], I want to hear it from any other than the designer/builder/salesman himself.
So there you go. So where is the technical questions you asked me for? Care to repeat them?

Everyone on the whole GS knows me and knows that I have no secrets and will explain anything to anyone. I do it for my company as well as other companies who don't either know or don't exist.

Paul Wolff, the insulter.
#25
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #25
Now for my opinion:

I like the MixDream and the Dangerous stuff if you are looking for transparency.

We don't compete because we don't sell the same sound.

I am not building a remote control room unit, I would rather suggest the Dangerous one. I suggest them to my own customers with certain configurations. Same goes for the SPL.

Sorry, I can't come up with an insult here, but I'll try and let you know.
#26
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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Faderjockey's Avatar
Paul Wolff, the insulter.

That's the new unit right?

The Insulter...I heard it sounded mean...
#27
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faderjockey
That's the new unit right?

The Insulter...I heard it sounded mean...
It's new module that makes everything sound like shit. I haven't sold very many though...

I think the Dang C/R box is new, yes.
#28
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilWave
As for Paul Wolff, I don't know what happened there but he is not in the habit of insulting potential customers.
Perhaps he thought I was not a potential customer?!?
#29
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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GilWave's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzoing
Perhaps he thought I was not a potential customer?!?
Depends - when you say "e-talk" do you mean e-mail? Did you e-talk directly with Paul regarding a solution (like I assume you did with ADT?), or was it only the post he refers to on Gearslutz?

-g
#30
14th March 2006
Old 14th March 2006
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Faderjockey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
You just gave Paul the idea he needed in what to call his next product.

"The Insulter"

Actually, the Waves guys should get that one.

Or,.....maybe it will be the name of the next Mercenary Edition product?


Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Ok then....Paul I want to beta The Insulter when your ready...
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