Wow. The Michael Jackson song 'Smooth Criminal' completely collapses in mono.

[andonwego]

...I was using MJ tracks as mono compatibility folddown references, one of them worked really well, I forget which, but then I tried Smooth Criminal --

Wow.

The harmonic content -- nearly gone.


Also collapsing in mono that I just checked, with some surprise:

-The power of the synth buzzsaw in Rihanna's 'Only Girl In The World'

-The background vocals in Britney Spears' 'Hold It Against Me'


Just opened my eyes, I always have liked those tracks for some certain sound I could never put my finger on.


Apparently it's huge interspeaker phase alignment differences in certain harmonic elements. Stereo effect makes it go straight into your brain. Yet disappears in mono.

[payne104]

trippy stuff

[bdenton]

Yeah, there's kind of an editorial/rant about this in the current issue of TapeOp...

[crypticglobe]

mono? whats that?

I actually have a friend that sometimes mixes in mono until the very end stage of the mix. I tried it... found that my phase cohesion did really rock... but I was never able to get it as full AND wide as I wanted until I went back and started from scratch the old way. hmmmmm... interesting find though.

[staylor200]

Originally Posted by andonwego

...I was using MJ tracks as mono compatibility folddown references, one of them worked really well, I forget which, but then I tried Smooth Criminal --

Wow.

The harmonic content -- nearly gone.


Also collapsing in mono that I just checked, with some surprise:

-The power of the synth buzzsaw in Rihanna's 'Only Girl In The World'

-The background vocals in Britney Spears' 'Hold It Against Me'


Just opened my eyes, I always have liked those tracks for some certain sound I could never put my finger on.


Apparently it's huge interspeaker phase alignment differences in certain harmonic elements. Stereo effect makes it go straight into your brain. Yet disappears in mono.

Swedien never checks/checked any of his work in mono.

[skythemusic]

Interesting, mix engineer Rule # 801 out the window.

[brad347]

I just checked it out. Kind of interesting-- in Mono, about the only thing really left is the kik, snare, hat, vocal, synth bass and that one main melodic riff. It might be kind of ingenious, actually.

The beat, the melody, ALL the words, and the main melodic motif all survive. Greatly reduced in apparent level (but still kinda there) are the pads, much of the guitar, and all the ambience. In other words, it seems almost designed to let the vocal/words and beat be as memorable/uncluttered as possible when heard in less-than-ideal environments. Who knows if that was intentional or not.

[andonwego]

What I don't understand is how it was actually recorded and mixed to have that effect. The backup harmonies go away nearly completely in mono!

All the -- 'Annie are you okay, won't you tell us that you're okay, and the sound of the window, that he struck you, a crescendo, Annie' stuff


I've always assumed Swedien recorded background vocals in Blumlein. But Blumien's known for great mono compatibility. Now I'm trying to figure out if this was more like recording a few mono phase-and-phrase-accurate passes of each harmony line (helps to have Michael Jackson singing) and hard panning the multiple takes? And then...alternately switching polarity of different takes? Hard left, then hard right polarity inverted, then next take hard right in phase, then hard left inverted?

Likely that M/S processing is involved..? How's this actually work?-- it's great.

[Stiff]

Mono? Wasn't that something we had in the 50's?

[KRStudio]

Take a backup vocal and copy it to a second track. Hard pan both and flip polarity on one. Big and wide. Mono, gone. Go back to stereo. Delay one track a few ms's and listen again.

[deft_bonz]

I couldn't do freakin saw pad walls wide and high as the Himalya with full mono compatibility

At least I try to have it NOT completely off-phase, so you loose everything or the whole instrument at once in mono.

The OP made me curious about other songs, not 100% mono compatible...

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by andonwego

...I was using MJ tracks as mono compatibility folddown references, one of them worked really well, I forget which, but then I tried Smooth Criminal --

Wow.

The harmonic content -- nearly gone.

I dunno what source you're using, lossy mp3 maybe? I just checked 'Smooth Criminal', wav-file in iTunes played back through a single Avantone with my SPL 2381 set to Mono. Sounds fine here. The only things that (obviously) disappears in mono are the pronouced stereo effects/vocal doublings. The 'harmonic content' is there and unharmed.

Originally Posted by staylor200

Swedien never checks/checked any of his work in mono.

Yes, he never checks in mono because he friggin' KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING! Probably worked on tons of mono mixes back in the day and most probably knows a thing or two about phase coherency.

I find that statement very weird because 'Thriller' was the one album that impressed me the most when I first got into checking in one-speaker mono. That and Steely Dan's 'Aja'.

[andonwego]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I dunno what source you're using, lossy mp3 maybe? I just checked 'Smooth Criminal', wav-file in iTunes played back through a single Avantone with my SPL 2381 set to Mono. Sounds fine here. The only things that (obviously) disappears in mono are the pronouced stereo effects/vocal doublings. The 'harmonic content' is there and unharmed.

That's the harmonic content I'm talking about. The second most emphasized part of the song, after the bass line, is that huge swell of block harmony.

Zap.

Gone.


Listening to a ripped AIFF from the remastered CD, not an Mp3 if it matters...

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by andonwego

That's the harmonic content I'm talking about. The second most emphasized part of the song, after the bass line, is that huge swell of block harmony.

I can hear it fine on my single Avantone! Believe me, I do lots of mono checking and there certainly are many records where important just dissapears but this wouldn't be an example for that IMO.

I mean it's a stereo mix and Bruce Swedien is well known for his focus on that. And there's a reason it's stereo which to my ears is mainly about the doubling and spatial effects. But the harmonic content is there in mono.

BTW, the intro with the 'heartbeat' subbass sound is also interesting. It has enough midrange content to be cleary present on the Avantone but of course it's designed for a bass-extended system. I feel the same way about the vocals and the mix in general. Of course it's a much more exciting listening experience in stereo but everything is there in mono to make musical sense.

[jcc449]

My guess is "maybe" the harmony was pan hard left and right, and with one of it phrase reverse. This works great and somehow extended the stereo image even wider but become a problem when playback in mono. Because they end up cross each other off when they sum up.
I was hurt by something opposite before. I bet many of you experienced this before. My friend was trying to play my music during a presentation and the playback system was routed irregularly(my guess: they route the tips/ring into mono duplicate 2) and it ends everything in the middle disappear and only "side" appear to stay. It means the lead vocal is gone...only music left there .

[Barish]

I hate stereo.

- Vincent Gallo

[deft_bonz]

I hate surround.

BTW, can surround also be mono compatible?

[Barish]

...if you know how to write a decent meta data, then why not?

[jval]

is mono compatibility really that important in 2011? I would say no, just make a good mix.

[evangelista]

I rarely check in mono, though I also rarely use any phase trickery which might affect mono compatibility.

I do mix a fair amount of stuff in mono, so I'm well aware of different mix approaches for mono vs. stereo, and I'm sure that subconsciously affects my decisions when working in stereo.

I may be lucky in my inherent stereo mix preferences. Whenever I've heard one of my stereo mixes in mono after-the-fact, I'm fine with it. I can hear the vocals/solos, the drums cut, the harmonic information is well-represented. Can't ask for much more.

[brad347]

Originally Posted by jval

is mono compatibility really that important in 2011? I would say no, just make a good mix.

I would be inclined to say "yes" for the following reasons--

• In 2011, it's customary to use techniques to make music appear louder both in mastering and in broadcast. One thing you see from time to time is a narrowing of the stereo field, often done in the mastering phase. Even if this does not happen to a particular master, it will often happen in broadcast. Many consumer stereos also switch to FM mono (either manually or automatically) if the signal strength isn't great enough.
  
• In 2011, very few listeners sit down and enjoy music in the "sweet spot" of a well-placed high fidelity listening system. When you have two randomly placed speakers in one room (often right next to each other on a bookshelf) and the listener halfway in the next room, things functionally move closer to "mono" pretty fast.
  
• Even in 2011, some consumer listening environments can still be mono. One of the most common of these would be older or inexpensive televisons. Since licensing is becoming increasingly important to actually being able to eke out a living in the music business, I'd argue that this matters.

[topperf]

Originally Posted by jval

is mono compatibility really that important in 2011? I would say no, just make a good mix.

And young people have a bad habit of listening to music off of their cell phone speaker..

- so mono and huge low cut

[msquared]

Originally Posted by skythemusic

Interesting, mix engineer Rule # 801 out the window.

However it does confirm mix engineer rule #1: There are no rules.

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by deft_bonz

I hate surround.

I love surround...

... if it's done right.

But even then a true stereo mix and not just a folddown is necessary. So yes, surround can be mono compatible as well

[waxx]

i always check in mono, it also improves your stereo mix if the mono is good (in most cases at least).

I did check also (44.1kHz 16bit wav rip from original vinyl 7" trough mediocore convertors), and did it on cubase summed trough a crappy behringer eurorack mixer (trought the bussing) to dual mono to a a bit less crappy tannoye nearfield (but i know them very well). I don't hear much difference but the spatial stereo effects and a bit less room. But certainly not a drastic difference.

[nukmusic]

Originally Posted by jval

is mono compatibility really that important in 2011? I would say no, just make a good mix.

I remember one of the engineers mentioning the that on Dave Pensado's show. It might have been Swedien himself. I can't remember. Something along the lines of not checking mono because they feel its not as important anymore.

Link:
******//www.youtube.com/show?p=KogBjNZTqeA

[dkelley]

this IS how they do that 3d stereo effect with only 2 speakers or headphones thing ya know.

like the old soudn card demo - only 2 speakers, listen to train drive around your head in a circle.

annie lennox released an album a couple years ago that boasts about it's special 3d mixing process or something... it sounds amazing and there are a couple of effects that go right through your head... I imagine if you listen in mono they're disappear almost completely.

I'm surprised that this result is surprising to anyone though... aren't the relationships of stereo and phase and directivity and artificial stereo effects pretty much the basics for audio engineering at a university level?


...



...



...


hahahah - sorry, just pulling your leg, I know lots of good engineers didn't study it at university :-)

cheers all

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by brad347

I would be inclined to say "yes" for the following reasons--

• In 2011, it's customary to use techniques to make music appear louder both in mastering and in broadcast. One thing you see from time to time is a narrowing of the stereo field, often done in the mastering phase. Even if this does not happen to a particular master, it will often happen in broadcast. Many consumer stereos also switch to FM mono (either manually or automatically) if the signal strength isn't great enough.
  
• In 2011, very few listeners sit down and enjoy music in the "sweet spot" of a well-placed high fidelity listening system. When you have two randomly placed speakers in one room (often right next to each other on a bookshelf) and the listener halfway in the next room, things functionally move closer to "mono" pretty fast.
  
• Even in 2011, some consumer listening environments can still be mono. One of the most common of these would be older or inexpensive televisons. Since licensing is becoming increasingly important to actually being able to eke out a living in the music business, I'd argue that this matters.

I do agree about that, and more examples:

background music systems in restaurants and so on

live music (PA) systems (what if one of these songs is put on in the pre-gig bg music tracks or is played by your rent-a-dj for the company christmas party?)

my antenna broke off on my car stereo (damn carwash and stupid driver.... me). now my fm often is in mono. mono stereo-only songs sound like ass on my car. and I don't love the sound of ass, personally.

sorry for being crude - I care less and less about manners as I get older and crankier :-)

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

I remember one of the engineers mentioning the that on Dave Pensado's show. It might have been Swedien himself. I can't remember. Something along the lines of not checking mono because they feel its not as important anymore.

It seems important or why does this thread exist at all?

Has anybody actually listened to the song in mono besides the OP? I still think that it translates quite well.

[brad347]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Has anybody actually listened to the song in mono besides the OP? I still think that it translates quite well.

I have, and I agree. But there's no doubting the mix changes considerably. See post #7.