advice needed for problem with vocal recording

[activexjava]

Hi all .. this is my first time here .. I will be glad to hear all your helpful openions..

I have a Yamaha O1v96 v2 going to my computer through an RME HDSP9652
I have 3 ADATs outs (using expansion card) going from my Yamaha mixer to the RME card ..

I tried to record solo and backing vocals ... I have a humble set of mics ..
1- Rode NT1A
2- AT 3035
3- AT 4033 ..

.. I only use the O1V96 channel compressor and no EQ ... just to prevent clipping .. and try to have a decent amount of gain ...

I have a serious problem recording the vocals... with the setup above :

no matter how I try .. all the vocal recordings sounded very thin .. only highs and emphasized mids... I tried to EQ with waves Q10 .. it helped a bit but does not give thickness to the sound .. no bottom end .. I use Sonar 5 as my DAW .. and the signals are strong enough .. but lacks the texture ..

someone suggested that I get an AKG414 XLS as its a flat mic .. but I don't think it will make a big improvement...

I am thinking of getting a focusrite ISA220 ... with or without the expensive A/D card ...

please give me your feedback .. I will ask some questions..
1- do you think that the ISA220 will dramatically improve my vocal tracks?..
2- do I need to get the A/D card ? .. or I can route the analogue out of the ISA220
into the O1V96 .. ? .. will I lose a lot of fidelity going through the Mixer PreAmps ..

3- finally .. any suggestions for another choice of Preamps (around $1500)?

thanks a lot ..
John

[wwittman]

It's impossible to know at a distance what yourproblem is...

but a few things:

have you tried getting CLOSE to the mics to gain some low end proximity effect?

if EQ isn't helping, what EQ are you using?
is it GOOD sounding EQ?


I don't think that the Yamaha preamps are helping you... they're nothing great certainly.

i might recommend a Daking much sooner than the Focusrite, but that's taste to some degree.

a 414, first of,f is a BRIGHT mic, not a full one... but in any event you might prefer one mic over another but you shouldn't feel all 3 of your choices sound "thin". that makes me think your problem is elsewhere.

I think another mic pre is a good place to start.
Can you borrow, or rent or try on approval, some options to see if it helps you?

[rwhitney]

This is probably too simple, but is EQ enabled on your input channels? Inadvertent HPF or shelf, maybe?

The 01V96’s Input Channels feature 4-band (LOW, LOW-MID, HIGH-MID, HIGH) para-
metric EQ. The LOW-MID and HIGH-MID bands are a peaking type of EQ. The LOW and
HIGH bands can be set to shelving, peaking, or HPF and LPF respectively.

[TonyBelmont]

Have you tried using different channels on your console? Just thinking out loud, but maybe there is a problem with that channel...

[activexjava]

I am grateful for your replies ...
actually wwittman has a point here .. I am trying to record 2 groups of backing vocals .. 3 men (one group) and 2 women (another group)..

if I get the mic too close to the one in the center .. I would lose the ones on the side .. so I have the 3 vocalists in a semi circle (the person in the middle is farthest from the mic and the mic is about 14 inches away from that person.
the other 2 in the sides are closer.. I am using AT4033 ..

in this case .. proximity effect is minimal .. I will try to crank the gain a lot more in the next session .. but not sure if that will work .. still even when recording a single person , who is Bariton-Tenor .. the sound was more middy-high .. and unpleasent..

I was not sure if getting a new mic or a new preamp .. will do the fix... having both is the fix .. but I have budget constraints..

I am still not sure if the ISA220 is a good choice .. and whether I should get the A/D converter card .. which is relatively expensive...

The EQ Iam using is the waves plugin - Q10 .. its a decent EQ plugin .. but it won't do miracles .. but its not used when doing the actual recording .. only for mixing ..
I turn the EQ off in the O1v96 when doing the vocal takes .. I only enable the compressor .. (I heard the O1v96 has the same Pre's as the DM1000 and O2R ... so I am kinda disappointed.. )

again .. your feedback is appreciated..

John

[DirkB]

Although the Yamah preamps aint no API's, they are actually very decent. Certainly they do not lack lowend, so if you are seriously lacking lowend, I imagine the problem is somewhere else.

With the AT4033 without any eq and compression, you should be able to record a decent sounding voice. Nothing spectacular but also nothing really lacking anything very obvious.
Start with a closed mic lead vocal, no compression, no eq and try to get that as good as possible using different mic placements.

Good luck,
Dirk

[gainreduction]

Try another mic-cable ? You never know..

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Try another mic-cable ? You never know..

actually the mic cables are studio flex .. and they are new...
the signal is actually clean .. no distortion .. I don't think there is a problem with the channels either ..
its simply the way the Preamps treat the sound .. the A/D converters in the O1v96 are very good .. but the end vocal sound lacks the pro-finish ..

surprisingly .. no one commented on the ISA220 .. is it any good ? ..
I will start a new thread

[AlexLakis]

If your signal chain has been checked, sounds like a room problem to me. Do you have baffles? Try creating an intimate pocket for the vocalist...some absorbtion might help any standing waves in the bass you might be encountering. You're not gonna get nearly as much low end standing 14 inches away from the mic, unless you're in a good room, but still...

Why do you want lotsa low end in your backing vocals anyway?

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by activexjava

actually the mic cables are studio flex .. and they are new...
the signal is actually clean .. no distortion .. I don't think there is a problem with the channels either ..
its simply the way the Preamps treat the sound .. the A/D converters in the O1v96 are very good .. but the end vocal sound lacks the pro-finish ..

surprisingly .. no one commented on the ISA220 .. is it any good ? ..
I will start a new thread

I have a Yamaha DM1000, BAE312's, Chandler TG2 and have a ISA220 that is currently not in use.

I can tell you one thing: you be amazed how well the DM1000 preamps hold up against the other preamps in a clean situation, e.g. recording overheads or acoustic guitar. I cannot imagine the preamps being the core of the problem.

On the 220: the unit is ok, nothing special. In fact, I'd just as happily use the onboard DM1000 preamps compared to the 220's. The eq is the nicest thing on the unit, nothing special, but I paricularly do not care for the compressor.

Good luck,
Dirk

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by DirkB

I have a Yamaha DM1000, BAE312's, Chandler TG2 and have a ISA220 that is currently not in use.

I can tell you one thing: you be amazed how well the DM1000 preamps hold up against the other preamps in a clean situation, e.g. recording overheads or acoustic guitar. I cannot imagine the preamps being the core of the problem.

On the 220: the unit is ok, nothing special. In fact, I'd just as happily use the onboard DM1000 preamps compared to the 220's. The eq is the nicest thing on the unit, nothing special, but I paricularly do not care for the compressor.

Good luck,
Dirk

thanks Dirk .. someone recommended the Chandler TG2 .. and I would love to get one .. but .. in such case I will be routing it to the O1V96 input .. (it has no A/D) unless I get a second unit.. which would be redendant..
I wonder how you use the unit you have ?..

thanks
John

[DirkB]

The outboard preamps go into the OMNI IN AD of the DM1000, which is a converter only input, no preamp.

Greetings,
Dirk

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by DirkB

The outboard preamps go into the OMNI IN AD of the DM1000, which is a converter only input, no preamp.

Greetings,
Dirk

smart ! .. this option is not available in the O1v96 ... you have to pass through the peramps... would you recommend that I go for the chandler TG2?

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by activexjava

smart ! .. this option is not available in the O1v96 ... you have to pass through the peramps... would you recommend that I go for the chandler TG2?

No, I would recommend that you figure out what is wrong. The difference with high quality preamps is not an huge difference. Only when everything else in the chain is at a certain level, the preamp will be a clear added benefit. To my ears a preamp like the TG2 adds depth, dimension and a richness to the sound that the DM1000 preamps don't add. But with your gear, the AT4033 into the 01V96 preamp and converter, you should be able to make a decent sounding recording where everything is in balance frequency wise. When you feel your recordings aren't improving anymore and you are sure the gear is the limiting factor, then yes I would invest in something like an API or Chandler or Daking preamp.

But first you have to figure out what you are doing wrong...

Good luck,
Dirk

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by DirkB

No, I would recommend that you figure out what is wrong. The difference with high quality preamps is not an huge difference. Only when everything else in the chain is at a certain level, the preamp will be a clear added benefit. To my ears a preamp like the TG2 adds depth, dimension and a richness to the sound that the DM1000 preamps don't add. But with your gear, the AT4033 into the 01V96 preamp and converter, you should be able to make a decent sounding recording where everything is in balance frequency wise. When you feel your recordings aren't improving anymore and you are sure the gear is the limiting factor, then yes I would invest in something like an API or Chandler or Daking preamp.

But first you have to figure out what you are doing wrong...

Good luck,
Dirk

I appreciate your advice ... I will try to investigate the problem closely till I see my limits .... then look for more gear .. at least its comforting that I can still get some decent tracks with what I have ...
thanks also to the rest of people for their feedback ..
John

[Robert Dewar]

Just thinking.... are your monitors in phase with each other, and can you say that for the rest of the signal chain, whatever that is? If you have a stereo monitor rig with a phase problem, and your mono vocal centred, you may well be losing something.

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by activexjava

but the end vocal sound lacks the pro-finish ..

not sure how you define "pro-finish", but looking at your mics .....why would you expect such a standard? still it should be pretty acceptable though. kind of too bad that your setup is too integrated to remove more variables to try and pinpoint your problem. are you sure you have phase lock from your yamaha to your rme (i'm not totally familiar w/ them)? at what sample rate and bit depth are you recording? can you post a sample? is it with a wide range of vocalists or just yours?

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

not sure how you define "pro-finish", but looking at your mics .....why would you expect such a standard? still it should be pretty acceptable though. kind of too bad that your setup is too integrated to remove more variables to try and pinpoint your problem. are you sure you have phase lock from your yamaha to your rme (i'm not totally familiar w/ them)? at what sample rate and bit depth are you recording? can you post a sample? is it with a wide range of vocalists or just yours?

Hi .. yes the phase lock is there and the RME card is in sync with all the 3 adats and SP/DIF ports the RME is the synch master and the mixer detects the matching settings.

I will post some samples after I do a test session this sunday .. I am new to this forum .. but I am learning A LOT from everybody here ... !

I think from all that I read .. the problem is that I am not cranking the gain well enough .. or the singers are far away from the mic .. and the proximity effect (which will impact the bass frequencies) is minimal ... so yes I hear a clean recording (no hiss or pops or distortion) but .. (and maybe I did not know how to describe it ...) it has only the mids and highs present ..

[mtstudios@charter]

Honestly, I don't like any of the mics you are using for vocals, esp. the Rode, that is a very bright mic. The other posts about getting close to the mic is a good start, and also maybe turn the mic a liittle off axis.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[activexjava]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

Honestly, I don't like any of the mics you are using for vocals, esp. the Rode, that is a very bright mic. The other posts about getting close to the mic is a good start, and also maybe turn the mic a liittle off axis.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

actually Rode mics are either love from first (sound) .. or you will hate it .. and I found that people who hate Rode mics .. would like AT mics instead .. like the AT4033 ....

it all depends on the type of voice you are recording ... at the end .. you will need to choose what to buy .. the NT1-A was the first mic that I got .. and I found it to be very good for female singes ..

I am thinking of getting a AKG 414B-XLS which has a flat response and is multi pattern .. this will be my prime vocal mic ...

by the way .. I visited your website and you have one hefty studio ... as pro as it gets ..

thanks
John

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by activexjava

actually Rode mics are either love from first (sound) .. or you will hate it .. and I found that people who hate Rode mics .. would like AT mics instead .. like the AT4033 ....

it all depends on the type of voice you are recording ... at the end .. you will need to choose what to buy .. the NT1-A was the first mic that I got .. and I found it to be very good for female singes ..

I am thinking of getting a AKG 414B-XLS which has a flat response and is multi pattern .. this will be my prime vocal mic ...

by the way .. I visited your website and you have one hefty studio ... as pro as it gets ..

thanks
John

Thanks for the compliment, although, you just reminded me where all my $$$$$$$$$ go.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[SoulSpace]

Hey John,

As I said on your other post I have the 01v96 (look at that thread on how to bypass the pres), and I think you could do a couple of things, in my opinion of order of importance (and price).

1) As mentioned earlier by the master Walt, get these folks up closer on the mic. The 01v96 pres have a slight high-mid push, compared to some boutique pres, they are not PHAT, so that bottom end you are wanting will only result from some proximity, mic placement and isolation (read; acoustics). But the pres are good, you should be able to get a decent sound. Truly work what you have before you start buying gear. Another suggestion since you are trying to record group vocals, set up two mics and record in stereo. Then your group could get up closer to the particular mic. If you can get everyone within 8 inches (maybe 4-6 inches) of the mic, you WILL have bottom end and fatness....probably too much. Experiment...

2) Get another mic. I don't have any of the mics you mentioned but I have found that a really good mic is more important than a really good pre. Just my opinion (flame on...). Maybe try a couple of fat sounding tube mics? If you're in Rode/AT range, maybe a Rode NTK with an upgraded tube (plug; I have one for sell...). The Peluso 2247 is great, around $1200. The Korby CAT is even better but costs about $5k just for starters. Your possibilities here are endless, do your research and try BEFORE you buy.

3) Get another pre and bypass the Yamaha pre. Your possibilites here as well are endless... Neve Portico is really good (around what?, $1500?). Maybe start an API-style rack or lunch-box with a big sounding pre (OSA, API, Shadow Hills, Brent Averill, etc., etc...). Again, your possibilities are endless.

Good luck.

[Fruition2k]

I'll agree with trying a few different mics, dynamics can also bring great results..better than many condensers. Get a hold of an RE20, if that ends up thin I would be very surprised. Also had an 01V, put many mics to the test, U195 and the RE20 was my favs then. Sold the U195 and my 4038 to get a M269c, but I'll tell you the RE20 is still here and can nudge out the 269 at times...

Another hard to find mic which isnt great for vocals but very cool for taming brittle/bright sources is the Beyer M380. Just love it, Bi-directional large diaphram almost like an old RCA 77/44. If you ever see one grab it...best $100 I've spent in
a long time.

All the best,

[SoulSpace]

Dean makes a good point,

I have a U195 and it is also a great mic, I would try this or another mic before a new preamp (haven't used the RE20, but it is highly recommended in these parts). You can search here and find a lot of possitives on both of these mics.

BUT, get them damn folks up closer to that damn mic you have! I think this will solve a lot of your problems...before you start spending money (I know...gearslutz blasphemy). Post back, I am interested in your results...

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by SoulSpace

Hey John,
If you can get everyone within 8 inches (maybe 4-6 inches) of the mic, you WILL have bottom end and fatness....probably too much.

14 inches shouldn't be that bad, for 3 people singing, but if this does the trick your mic/pre combo doesn't have much throw. try taping a 2 or 3 of lines on the floor around the mic with 3 different measurements and have them do takes at each of them (6/10/14 inches etc). i could see too much room sound, maybe that's your problem. are you working in a large room, or if a small space is it treated well? that can really throw off the sound when micing from a distance. the further away you go, the room needs to be bigger and/or treated well. otherwise you'll end up with a lot of whatever is going on in the room. also, i assume you're recording at 24/96 - if not try that also, you'd be surprised the effect on vox.

Originally Posted by SoulSpace

I have found that a really good mic is more important than a really good pre. Just my opinion (flame on...).

i find this to be true to certain price points as a *general* rule. $1000ish per channel on the pre, $2000ish on the mics. once you hit those levels there's a bump on both, again we're talking general, there are of course notable exceptions. there are expensive mics that aren't worth their salt, and some cheaper ones which stand out, but you'll start to find more smiles on your face when you get above both of those points. now i'll be flamed away.

[activexjava]

Hi all ..
thanks a lot for your valuable comments and suggestions...
I feel so happy to get all that feedback .. as before .. I was only thinking by my self ..

the only thing is .. I just don't see an answer to the real question that I have ...
I am about to start my first CD ever for a group of church choir .. we will be doing what is called "spiritual songs" not the typical church hymns... its more like pop songs...
I have an Fantom-X6 , XV5050 module , Korg Pa-80 and lots of software samplers and synths...
when recording the sound from my keyboards .. it sounded very good... so I said cool .. at least I can see a good quality here ...

I am trying to compare what I am recording with the commercial CDs ..I know that to get really there I need to have a lot a lot more .. but at least from my keyboards I was getting a decent sound...

the main problem was when I started to record vocal test samples of the choir .. as its mostly a lead vocalist then back vocals.. just typical pop songs style...

I noticed that the sound of the lead & group tracks was way different ...

even when I add reverb (waves diamond plugins) , delay and compression....

and compare the sound to that in the commercial CDs ... I see a big difference ...

the sound in the CD's is less in volume .. seems so polished (highs and lows) and very clear .. its like if it has much less energy than what I record .. but very polished no harsh frequencies .. but also very focused....

I read alot about mastering .. read mixing books... so I have some idea about what goes on in the making of the tracks....

but .. I felt that I had a barrier that no matter how much I fiddle with my set ... I cannot make gold from copper...

so I started to ask the question .. what AM I MISSING????... a better mic ??.,.. a better pre??... external effect processor?....

HOW CAN I GET/MAKE THAT POLISHED SOUND ????????????????

I have been working all the past days making GOBOs ... 2x6 ft each with acoustic foam 4" such that I can place it around the group ...

I am also getting a new mic ... surprisingly .. an AKG C414B-XLS ... why??..because all the maps were very flat... and I can tweak the sound as I want in the mixing phase....

John.

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by activexjava

HOW CAN I GET/MAKE THAT POLISHED SOUND ????????????????
John.

hey man, we've all been there. i'm still only part of the way there on mixing, and i'm not really sure if i want to really focus on it and detract from the creative side. its a journey to create your sound. You have good enough gear to make a very decent quality CD. In all honesty, once your arrrangements can get to the level where you need them (sounds like they are) its not b.s. that good mixing is worth its weight in gold. It takes years, literally to hone the craft, learn from the right people and train your ears (and good monitors you trust). I bet if you gave your mixes to some experienced guys it would blow you away the music you created in your studio. If you find an engineer to show you the ropes it is worth every dime. I still farm most of my mixes out becasue it needs to be really good and i'm not afraid to admit i don't have "it". keep at it, there's lots of posts here about exactly what you're talking about. i'd say your experience is the majority in your type of situation.

[SoulSpace]

John,

PLEASE move your choir closer to the mic! 14 inches is too far, if you want to have a big vocal with what you have. Get them closer, real close. Just try it.

You are doing gospel, right? Check out some Donnie McClurkin stuff. That music is INCREDIBLE, and they mostly are recording in a church, live. I can't thing of any gospel that kicks more than his stuff, and I don't think they are using boutique gear. Not that that makes a difference to your situation, but it ain't the gear for the most part, pal.

I would pass on the 414, while using the 01v96, as others have said, it may compound your problems. It is pretty bright (high-mid push).

The other thing you have to remember is that tracking is different than mixing. You can have a decent sounding track while tracking, but when mixed it sounds great. Just make sure you have all of the information (sound) that you would want during mixing...let the mix master take care of the rest.

What's your recording medium? Cubase, Nuendo, Pro-Tools? You can do some incredible changes in these tools, with the right plug-ins.

You're doing gospel, keep the spirit.

[Fruition2k]

Are you recording this in your sanctuary or in a studio? Are your choir members divided by section i.e. Soprano - Alto - Tenor? You'll have better control if so..
As for compression - seriously you may not need much if at all - best bet 3 KM84's above each section with 3 LA3A's or CL1b's on the inserts with no more than .5 DB to 1 1/2db at the most of gain reduction. Its a good starting point and you'll know right off the bat your signal chain is decent.
Monitoring....how are they hearing music and melody during performance?
I know its a big task, and a major project. You'll need to stress the importance
of renting gear for a week or two. If you're attempting a "polished sound", productive rehearsals and capturing it with good gear in the appropriate acoustical space from the start is essential.


If you have the budget, find the best studio in the area, book time there and you'll save youself from many headaches. If you were here in S Florida, Id tell you to call Criteria, and book studio A which has a wonderful Neve 8068, tons of space, and the best gear you could ever want. Studio rates for a couple days at most places would be a few thousand and well worth it all thoughout the project.

Bottom line is a polished commercial sound is going to take top notch ears, a great room, talent, and gear...dont be discouraged and if you need further help feel free to PM me.