21st February 2006
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#1 | | Gear Head
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 37
Thread Starter  | Accept/80's drum production questions
Hey guys, I mostly work with extreme metal bands and do a lot of triggering, etc. But I am about to start production for an 80's type of metal band. Very tight players with excelent gear, etc. In fact the main reason Im here posting is in hopes that Michael will respond. And also maybe gain some insights from other regulars.
What Im going for with these guys is basically Accept "Balls to the Wall". I have a re mastered copy here where all the nuances have been brought up to the top and its so obvious how ahead of its time this recording was. Its dry and in your face. But still has the wet snare and vocals.
Anyway, I think I can handle all the tones myself but one thing that is not my domain of expertise is that snare sound. That huge cracking snare. Well, the drummer for this band has a nice deep snare that will work, now I just need to record it correctly and use the right compression, and verbs.
If you are here Michael, can you point me in the right direction for this snare sound? Also can you or others take a look at this list of the preamps that are available at this studio and tell me which you would use for what? I mean, I know what Im going to use if left up to my own , but it would be nice to get some suggestions. Im only tracking drums here and I have 3 days. I want to be efficient.
Neve V3 console (late 80's design)
Pendulum tube pre
New Trident 2 ch preamp
Neve 33115 x 2
Neve 1272 x 2
Avalon Vt737 x 2
Michael has said in other places that he believes a snare needs a 'fast' preamp. Whats my fastest preamp here? Also any suggestions with mics would be nice. My plan so far is:
OH C414 or KM 84 Spaced pair. KM 84 for middle OH and behind kit high up(room)
Snare top and bot 57
Toms MD 421
Kick sm 91, b52(Inside) Subkick out(first time, will try).
KM 84 or 184 HH and ride.
Theres 2 distressors here too and I was planning on sending a snare mult to that and record that to Pro Tools as well. I mix in the box later.
Where am I going wrong here?
Thank you!
Colin Davis
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21st February 2006
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#2 | | High End Moderator
Joined: May 2002 Location: Music City USA  |
Well, as usual, first and foremost it's the actual snare and the guy who plays it and the room where it's being played. Other than that, not being there, I can only advise to try different mics (I'm not a big SM57 fan on snare). I had great luck with the Octava 219 (cheap!) mic and a Neve-ish mi-pre (SCA N72) or a fast mic-pre like the John Hardy M1 (SCA 99 or C84). If you can find a Trident A-range, that would be very cool. The BTW snare was recorded with a MCI 636 console and the bult in mic-pre and EQ. Can't remember the mic.
The reverb used on that mix on the snare was a Quantec QRS and the old (blue) Lexicon 224. We also used an empty oil tank which was under the studio. I can't remember the model of the snare Stephan had at the time, but I would assume that it was a Ludwig.
I would also suggest to set up a second mic (Beyer M201 or SM7) and run it through a tube mic pre on stunn (I use the old GrooveTubes MP-1 for that or the Summit tube mic pre). Make sure it's in phase with the other mic (IBP maybe). Give it a good kick in the gain department, so it overdrives the mic-pre. You might have to tame it at the output to get your recording level in check. Shave some of the high end off that track and mix it in with the original snare maybe at 75%.
Hope that gets you going. 
Last edited by mwagener; 21st February 2006 at 01:47 AM..
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21st February 2006
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#3 | | Gear Head
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 37
Thread Starter |
That does get me going! Thanks Michael.
Colin
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21st February 2006
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#4 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2005 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,319
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thanks, michael! i always loved the tight "in your face" drum sound on those records... 
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"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep"...
--Scott Adams
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21st February 2006
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#5 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jul 2004 Location: OH/Columbus
Posts: 4,793
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If you're looking for a Quantec QRS to really nail it, PM me as I might be having one become available very soon..
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David Fisher (aka tibbon)
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21st February 2006
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#6 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: USA
Posts: 1,899
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by mwagener We also used an empty oil tank which was under the studio. | Under the studio? How'd that happen?
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21st February 2006
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#7 | | High End Moderator
Joined: May 2002 Location: Music City USA | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Killahurts Under the studio? How'd that happen? | Well, I should have said under the studio complex. I think it was there before some of the studio buildings were built, and Dieter Dierks always planned on using it for reverb.
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21st February 2006
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#8 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: USA
Posts: 1,899
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Thanks Michael, that's really cool!
I hate to badger you with more questions about it, but this stuff really inspires me...
Did you guys just put a speaker and some mics in there, how big were they, got any pic's? 
I have this dream of building my own reverb chamber someday. 
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Analog is the new black | |
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21st February 2006
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#9 | | High End Moderator
Joined: May 2002 Location: Music City USA | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Killahurts Thanks Michael, that's really cool!
I hate to badger you with more questions about it, but this stuff really inspires me...
Did you guys just put a speaker and some mics in there, how big were they, got any pic's?
I have this dream of building my own reverb chamber someday. | Yep, just a speaker and a C12 (the 414 looking ones). No pictures. I would guess the tank was about 30 feet long and about 6 feet in diameter. It had a small hole with a lid to get in and out.
If you are thinking about building an echo chamber, you HAVE to check out the one at Blackbird studio. It has a motorized movable ceiling for different reverb length/room sizes, very cool. When we took the tour during the last workshop, Vance (studio manager) showed us how it even changes the size of the recording room right next to the chamber when leaving the door open. Cool stuff.
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23rd February 2006
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#10 | | Gear Head
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 37
Thread Starter |
Hey Michael, if youre here, do you remember anything about the toms on Accept BTW?
In some sections I hear obvious electronic toms. And in other parts I hear great acoustic toms.
If you recall, in what way did you record them and what kind of drums was Stephan using then?
Colin
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23rd February 2006
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#11 | | High End Moderator
Joined: May 2002 Location: Music City USA | Quote: |
Originally Posted by vile_ator Hey Michael, if youre here, do you remember anything about the toms on Accept BTW?
In some sections I hear obvious electronic toms. And in other parts I hear great acoustic toms.
If you recall, in what way did you record them and what kind of drums was Stephan using then?
Colin | I didn't record the album, just mixed it. As far as I know the toms were miced from underneath with no bottom heads. I can't remember what drums Stefan was using on that album. He did build his kick drums himself (40" deep, 26" diameter). I think the rest was Ludwig, but don't quote me on this.
Also, I f*cked up on the first tom fill in BTW, the toms are way to low in the mix, oops  | |
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23rd February 2006
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#12 | | 3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
Joined: Oct 2004 Location: Rosedale Cemetery Singing Beach, MA
Posts: 4,868
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what a kick ass guitar sound those guys had. They are obviously Marshalls (i hope) What mics do you use on the amps? The Restless and wild sound had a lot of ambience. It was kinda like Metallica but before Metallica. Did you play guitar on those too?
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23rd February 2006
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#13 | | High End Moderator
Joined: May 2002 Location: Music City USA | Quote: |
Originally Posted by allencollins what a kick ass guitar sound those guys had. They are obviously Marshalls (i hope) What mics do you use on the amps? The Restless and wild sound had a lot of ambience. It was kinda like Metallica but before Metallica. Did you play guitar on those too? | Yes, Marshalls only, but some of them were highly modded. Wolf also used the old Distortion+. On R&W we had Marshall stacks in EVERY room of the studio, even the bathroom. The roomy sound came from the Eventide delays, can't remember the model# but they were made for PA speaker delay and had one in - four out and the delay was set via dipswitches on the front. I used to "create" rooms with two of those things. Not sure about the mics, but I think we used mainly 421s and 409s. Back then I didn't pay that much attention to what mic or preamp was used but on R&W it was the MCI 636 console pres and EQs. Dieter Dierks had bought a whole mobile truck with Telefunken V72s and V76s (over 60 of them) but it was just sitting in the parking lot and nobody really cared about it
No, I didn't play guitar on those records (or any records for that matter), I quit the band in 1970. On R&W Wolf played all the guitars, not sure on BTW (didn't record that one) but I would assume he played all of those as well. Wolf came over and checked out the Randall amps at the studio recently and it instantly sounded like him, go figure.
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24th February 2006
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#14 | | Gear Head
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 60
| first accept album
where was the first album recorded. I listen to that album on vinyl all the time, and am amazed at the open-ness of sound on that album. especially acoustic guitars on THE KING... love the retro sound of the drums, what did you run on those?
also you have any idea what the scorpions used on taken by force?
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