Rack line mixer with direct outs?

[southsounder]

I'm looking to upgrade my current synth submixer/routing setup. I've currently got 8 mono & 4+ stereo signal sources.

I'd like to be able to assign any of the channels to either a monitor mix or a recording mix, and I'd like to be able to send the 8 mono channels to my DAW via direct outs as well. Pre/post fader doesn't matter on the direct outs.

Lastly, I'd like it to be rack-mountable. Functionally, my Onyx 1620 actually fits the bill exactly. Problems are it has a bunch of extra features like mic pres, EQ and FX sends that aren't needed. As a result it takes up mucho rack space. Additionally the sound quality on the stereo channels isn't as good as the mono channels. Lastly, it's running out of channels as I add more stereo signal sources.

The Speck X.Sum would be absolutely perfect except it lacks direct outs. Multiple Studio Projects SP828's would also work, but I'm not sure the sound quality will be an improvement over the Mackie.

Does anyone know of something else that would fit the bill? Budget is up to $3k or so, and I wouldn't mind combining multiple units to get the functionality I'm looking for.

[bitman]

This might help you out.

I have one of these that can be a mixer a distro amp or buffer.

DOD 606 1U line mixer.
DOD Electronics - SR606 Architect & Engineer Specs

[drBill]

A D&R Vision Rackmount frame with Dual Line inputs fits your needs but is out of your price range unless you can find a used one (pretty difficult...). Still a Vision with the dual line modules is perhaps the ultimate summing/line mixer.

[|-|]

Probably more than you need... But A&H make a 'mostly' stereo console in the mixwizard series. It's rackable but takes up many U's

Boat load of stereo inputs, as each stereo channel has dual stereo inputs (2 TRS, 2 RCA) they share eq/pfl/fader but have individual trim's.

Been using one for years, VERY handy and better than mackie to my ears...

[|-|]

[IMG]******//184.72.239.143/mu/434738c2-9f94-b09f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]******//184.72.239.143/mu/434738c2-9ff8-5e1c.jpg[/IMG]

[ekadek]

i can make an entirely transistor mixer exactly to your spec. with just the specific functionality you want. one question before making a drawing and quote tho. do u need metering? there could be a vu meter pair that could look at either the monitor mix or the recording mix maybe ?

so far im thinking that each channel has
*sensitivity switch +4/-10
* volume
* pan
* buss select monitor/record ( centre off)
* full time direct outputs (post fader amp - pre pan).
each stereo channel is same except the pan could be dual controls set up as panorama ie. normal stereo - mono - reverse mixers. easy to do.

there would be master monitor send and record send master. both stereo controls. and metering???

i reckon i could fit this into 5 or 6 rack spaces . hope you like this photo of 'state of minds' unit. they wanted a heap of inserting options - 2 stereo subgroup busses with eq. and separate house and monitor and headphone sends. all transistor. sounds awesome and freaking alive. they love it on all their synths. and the patching all on top is super easy within their live rig.
[IMG]******//ekadek.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/som8-500x375.jpg[/IMG]

[Jim@SSL]

X-Rack.

[trustyjim]

The Speck XTRAMIX 8 bus is a rackmount mixer that is similar to the X-Sum but with more features. I believe both were originally designed to fill a need for keyboard mixers. It might be a bit over budget at $4k though.

[trustyjim]

Or for $3k you could do the X-Sum and get a patch bay and cables. Not as sexy as a purpose built device but using Y cables or half-normalled config on a patch bay would probably work the best to also get those 8 outputs into your DAW.

[bitman]

Oh a big rackmount line mixer.

Spirit fx-16 - 16 line / mic inputs w/ direct outs on all.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

ATI 8MX2 is a one rack space stereo mixer with monitors, direct outs, and dynamic control on each channel, along with Paragon console mic pres.

[RonT]

Find a used spec xtramix! It has everything you are looking for.
******//www.speck.com/pdf/xtramix/Xtr...lication_1.pdf

Saw one sell on ebay fo $1300 last month!

USED SPECK XTRAMIX-CX - eBay (item 330526798077 end time Mar-14-11 07:40:02 PDT)

And here's one for $2k on ebay Buy It Now!!!

Speck Electronics Xtramix CX Rackmount Line Mixer! - eBay (item 300533954934 end time Apr-05-11 19:54:26 PDT)

[CoolColJ]

It's no longer available on Ebay - tee hee

That one was in good shape, it was a CX, but it had been upgraded to CXI spec.
It had a CXI sticker over the updates section at the back above the serial number.
So you know it had been serviced at some point in it's life

[southsounder]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

The A&H Mixwizard 20s looks like a great low buck solution - it is big, but not as big as my Onyx 1620 (10 spaces vs. 12+ room for the jacks on top). It would actually just fit in my rack - unlike the Mackie. One downside I noticed is that at least on the version 3's the EQ isn't bypassable, which is one of the things I really like about the Onyx series.

The XtraMix looks amazing in all regards except I'm not sure it has direct outs. The 8 bus design might be more flexible in the long run though.

At the end of the day, I decided to shoot for simplicity if possible. You just can't beat the straight forward approach of the X.Sum. And it's so close to being exactly what I need - and in one rack space to boot.

So I shot Vince at Speck an email tonight asking if it would be possible to mod an X.Sum so that the 1st eight channels use the left input jack as a mono input and the former right input jack as a channel direct out, with the mono switch selecting either the normal panning/bus switch signal path or the direct output.

If he'll do it, it'll be absolutely brilliant. If he can't, then I think I'm going to pick up a stock X.Sum and maybe a used True Precision 8. I noticed they have two sets of balanced outputs, so the first set could feed the left/mono inputs on the X.Sum and the second set could function as direct outs.

It won't be quite as slick since there will be two gain stages on the first eight channels, and I'll have use the X.Sum levels more as faders when I want to use the direct outs. But both the X.Sum line amps and the True pres should be clean enough for it not to matter too much.

I'll let you know how it works out - got my fingers crossed for a modded X.Sum though!

[RonT]

Originally Posted by southsounder

Thanks for all the suggestions!

The A&H Mixwizard 20s looks like a great low buck solution - it is big, but not as big as my Onyx 1620 (10 spaces vs. 12+ room for the jacks on top). It would actually just fit in my rack - unlike the Mackie. One downside I noticed is that at least on the version 3's the EQ isn't bypassable, which is one of the things I really like about the Onyx series.

The XtraMix looks amazing in all regards except I'm not sure it has direct outs. The 8 bus design might be more flexible in the long run though.

At the end of the day, I decided to shoot for simplicity if possible. You just can't beat the straight forward approach of the X.Sum. And it's so close to being exactly what I need - and in one rack space to boot.

So I shot Vince at Speck an email tonight asking if it would be possible to mod an X.Sum so that the 1st eight channels use the left input jack as a mono input and the former right input jack as a channel direct out, with the mono switch selecting either the normal panning/bus switch signal path or the direct output.

If he'll do it, it'll be absolutely brilliant. If he can't, then I think I'm going to pick up a stock X.Sum and maybe a used True Precision 8. I noticed they have two sets of balanced outputs, so the first set could feed the left/mono inputs on the X.Sum and the second set could function as direct outs.

It won't be quite as slick since there will be two gain stages on the first eight channels, and I'll have use the X.Sum levels more as faders when I want to use the direct outs. But both the X.Sum line amps and the True pres should be clean enough for it not to matter too much.

I'll let you know how it works out - got my fingers crossed for a modded X.Sum though!

X.sum and patch-bay in a half normal configuration. This will give you the direct outs. You wouldn't even need any cables in the front so it would be really neat.

And at mix time the x-sum can double as a 32in summing mixer.

Speck!




Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[southsounder]

Originally Posted by RonT

X.sum and patch-bay in a half normal configuration. This will give you the direct outs. You wouldn't even need any cables in the front so it would be really neat.

I thought about that idea, the problem is that I need the direct outs to be post-gain - the synths I'm using don't have enough output to drive my converters directly.

So either I get Vince to add the direct outs post channel gain-stage, or I add a gain stage before the X.Sum via mic pres or line amps. If anyone knows of a decent 8 channel line amp box I'm all ears!

But I'm with you - Speck is the way to go for a monitoring/routing mixer. There will be an X.Sum involved one way or the other.

[ekadek]

[IMG]******//ekadek.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/4bus-mixer1.jpg[/IMG]
i reckon this design might be exactly! what you need. i use all transistor operational amps. ekadek ripped early eighties neve 538 4 transistor amplifier block. NO CHIPS. your synths will love you.

everyone forgets that gear that we hate the sound of is chip based. too many integrated circuits make for totally flattened out audio.

hell will freeze over before i make a chip balancing input or output amplifier so ... if you require balancing - then transformers are the go. harbuch matching transformers a great quality at reasonable price or maybe some tasty vintage ones.

anyway.

10 mono inputs . 5 stereo inputs. volume - sensitivity gain switch - direct output post amp - pan - bus select - monitor output trim - record output trim - meter select - meter panel preset levels.
[IMG]******//ekadek.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/anneve1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]******//ekadek.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/4bux-mixer2.jpg[/IMG]
the fenkner806 picture (leslie boinkin's Qld ) is a similar kind of beast in terms of its size i think. his fenkner08 has a control room monitor section - 2 microphone inputs - and 8 mono input channels. i make panels from aluminum plate and letter stamp them one by one. the panels are then polished and clear powder coated. wont scuff or discolor.

[Steamy Williams]

Originally Posted by southsounder

I thought about that idea, the problem is that I need the direct outs to be post-gain - the synths I'm using don't have enough output to drive my converters directly.

So either I get Vince to add the direct outs post channel gain-stage, or I add a gain stage before the X.Sum via mic pres or line amps. If anyone knows of a decent 8 channel line amp box I'm all ears!

But I'm with you - Speck is the way to go for a monitoring/routing mixer. There will be an X.Sum involved one way or the other.

I PM'ed you about something I'm selling in the classifieds that I think would meet your requirements.

[southsounder]

Alas per Vince modding an X.Sum to include direct outs would require a PCB redesign, which would likely be more than twice the normal cost of a regular X.Sum if he would even be willing to tackle such a project. So an X.Sum with an 8 channel line amp setup seems the simplest way to go.

Again, if anyone knows of a good 8 channel line amp I'd be interested.

ekadek, if you were in the continental US (or I'd managed to convince my lady to go expat down there) we'd be talking. International deals have not worked well for me in the past unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Steamy Williams

I PM'ed you about something I'm selling in the classifieds that I think would meet your requirements.

Just responded, sorry for the delay.

[RonT]

Originally Posted by southsounder

Alas per Vince modding an X.Sum to include direct outs would require a PCB redesign, which would likely be more than twice the normal cost of a regular X.Sum if he would even be willing to tackle such a project. So an X.Sum with an 8 channel line amp setup seems the simplest way to go.

Again, if anyone knows of a good 8 channel line amp I'd be interested.

ekadek, if you were in the continental US (or I'd managed to convince my lady to go expat down there) we'd be talking. International deals have not worked well for me in the past unfortunately.



Just responded, sorry for the delay.

Heres thinking outside of the box:

I know someone who uses the "B"Word HP8000 for an 8 channel line driver. Each channel has a stereo direct in and a headphone out which he uses for line outs.

He had to use insert cables and the signals were unbalanced but worked for him. Cheap and effective.

Another great option is 4 RNCs in 2 funk logic racks. You can find these on ebay all day for $300. You will end up not only with some line drivers but some very very useful compressors as well! I use comps for line level all the time.

Originally Posted by southsounder

I'm looking to upgrade my current synth submixer/routing setup. I've currently got 8 mono & 4+ stereo signal sources.

I'd like to be able to assign any of the channels to either a monitor mix or a recording mix, and I'd like to be able to send the 8 mono channels to my DAW via direct outs as well. Pre/post fader doesn't matter on the direct outs.

Lastly, I'd like it to be rack-mountable. Functionally, my Onyx 1620 actually fits the bill exactly. Problems are it has a bunch of extra features like mic pres, EQ and FX sends that aren't needed. As a result it takes up mucho rack space. Additionally the sound quality on the stereo channels isn't as good as the mono channels. Lastly, it's running out of channels as I add more stereo signal sources.

The Speck X.Sum would be absolutely perfect except it lacks direct outs. Multiple Studio Projects SP828's would also work, but I'm not sure the sound quality will be an improvement over the Mackie.

Does anyone know of something else that would fit the bill? Budget is up to $3k or so, and I wouldn't mind combining multiple units to get the functionality I'm looking for.

Serioulsy though, why not just get the xtramix? It has everything you requested and more...and withing your budget.

[trustyjim]

Originally Posted by RonT

X.sum and patch-bay in a half normal configuration. This will give you the direct outs. You wouldn't even need any cables in the front so it would be really neat.

+10. I'm telling ya, you should be using a patch bay to get direct outs, not modding your equipment. If you don't understand how this works, you should take a little time to research patch bays and "half normal" configuration.

[CoolColJ]

The manual for the DBX patchbay explains it pretty well

PB48 :: dbx® Professional Products

[Ghost Logic]

Get a used Speck Xtramix--its exactly what you are looking for and you can get a used one within your budget.

[southsounder]

Originally Posted by trustyjim

+10. I'm telling ya, you should be using a patch bay to get direct outs, not modding your equipment. If you don't understand how this works, you should take a little time to research patch bays and "half normal" configuration.

LOL, no I well understand how patchbays work. My last studio setup ran a bay with over 300 points. It was expensive and kind of a hassle to maintain. It also worked very well for that particular setup.

Our new space is much smaller and we're trying really hard to streamline the workflow. Our goal is direct connections whenever possible, so I've been trying very hard to avoid patchbays completely this time around. I already had Joel @ Rascal mod my Tonebuss for an extra pair of direct outs for just that reason and it's working great.

In this case though, as I mentioned before the real issue is that the direct outs need to be post-gain stage, and the patch bay solution does not accommodate that.

The XtraMix would probably work, but it's still a little more complicated than I really need. An X.Sum with 8 channels of line amps in front of the first 8 channels is exactly what I need and nothing more. I'm looking at a used API 8200A now actually - I hadn't realized they also had direct outs.

[tmanoff]

The coloration in this mixer is rather extreme unless you're looking for that kind of thing.

[Jim Williams]

I picked up a rack Soundcraft Delta 200 8x4x2 for $400 used. It has direct outs, 4 band EQ, and all the goodies.

[southsounder]

Originally Posted by tmanoff

The coloration in this mixer is rather extreme unless you're looking for that kind of thing.

Actually I'm glad to hear that because I am. In the setup I'm replacing I ran the ALT 3/4 bus from my Onyx through 2 channels of Radial JDI and then into 2 channels on an API 3124+ before hitting my converters.

A bit unorthodox I know, but I A/B'd the direct signal vs. the JDI+API signal extensively and the later really made a remarkable difference. So I was hoping the 8200A was similarly colored.

Do you happen to know if that coloration extends to the direct outs or just the mix bus? I'm not quite clear if the 8200A inputs hit the usual API op amps & transformers or whether they're only on the mix output stage.

[CoolColJ]

I found the Speck Xtramix to colour the sound somewhat, at least relative to what everyone says that it's supposed to be transparent.

Comparing a signal going through the Xtramix and then into my audio interface vs just going straight into the audio interface directly - the top end gets a little rounded off and there is extra thickness added in the lower mids, and perhaps a little extra sweetness. Some things sound better going directly into the interface and some get enhanced from the Xtramix colouration.

I can post some audio comparison if anyone is interested - synths