Neumann M150 vs Wunder M50?

[RoundBadge]

I had a trio of Wunder M50's on demo next to a trio of real m50's w/ my studio partner a while back.
sorry but no comparison.
the Wunders seemed to be missing an octave of low low end info the originals had in spades.
the real acid test was when we threw them 4 feet in front of a 26" ludwig double headed kick drum [ala Bonham]
the original 50's killed it.all the low end Boom and Woof you would ever want.
the wunders low end was anemic by comparison.very disappointing.
initially shocked by the difference,we switched mic pre's,return channels on the console,etc.
same results.
[tracking w/ an old Neve console/monitoring with Barefoot MM27's and a Genelec 7070A sub].

mind you it was an early run..hope they're different now
Still like the wunder 47's though.

till this day can't I find anything that nails an old M50...or M49 for that matter.

[John Willett]

The Neumann M150 is the new version from the original manufacturer.

But if I wanted to go for a modern "clone" of the original M50 I think I would go for the FLEA 50.

[S.Blanchardon]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The Neumann M150 is the new version from the original manufacturer.

But if I wanted to go for a modern "clone" of the original M50 I think I would go for the FLEA 50.

+1 for the FLEA50 !

[Plush]

I would definitely go with the Neumann product. Leaving aside whether or not it has a "real vintage M50" sound, it is an excellent mic.
Bias on GS against some of Neumann's better products is dumb and uninformed.

Wunder is not for real. Also please investigate Schoeps CMC62H with spheres. Many use these as an M50 substitute.

Best wishes in your search and decision.

PhluSH

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

Also please investigate Schoeps CMC62H with spheres. Many use these as an M50 substitute.

The other alternative for the M50 is the new Neumann KK 133.

This is the interchangeable head for the KM-D and KM-A series and uses the same titanium transducer as it used in the M150 / TLM 50.

The picture below shows the KK 133 on the KM-D (but the KM-A would look the same other than the colour of the Neumann Diamond):

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Plush

Wunder is not for real. Also please investigate Schoeps CMC62H with spheres. Many use these as an M50 substitute.

Best wishes in your search and decision.

PhluSH

well i wouldn't go so far as to say all the wunders are bogus.
I had two of the 47's and they sounded right to the 2 originals here.
the M50 not so much.
haven't heard the flea m50 or 49 yet although Rick Krizman loves his.
+1 schoeps recommended.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

well i wouldn't go so far as to say all the wunders are bogus.
I had two of the 47's and they sounded right to the 2 originals here.
the M50 not so much.
haven't heard the flea m50 or 49 yet although Rick Krizman loves his.
+1 schoeps recommended.

Well you're certainly right--I should not paint Wunder with a broad brush. I was talking about Wunder in the context of the M50 discussion here.

I am still a fan of the Neumann M150. I am also the original FLEA freak on GS.
I have the FLEA 49 and FLEA 47 here. They are both outstanding mics. FLEA makes great microphones. I have not heard the FLEA 50, however.
I happen to think that their expertise lies elsewhere than in sphere pressure omnis.

Here I am using the Neumann M50 mics.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

I had two of the 47's and they sounded right to the 2 originals here.
the M50 not so much.
haven't heard the flea m50 or 49 yet although Rick Krizman loves his.

To be clear, I have and love the Flea 49 but haven't heard the Flea m50.

-R

[andonwego]

So,

Neumann M150 (not M50)
Versus
FLEA 50 (same as FLEA 250)

?

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

To be clear, I have and love the Flea 49 but haven't heard the Flea m50.

-R

sorry Rick.shouldve clarified your a flea 49 owner

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by andonwego

So,

Neumann M150 (not M50)
Versus
FLEA 50 (same as FLEA 250)

?

This is a decision you will have to make for yourself.

The Neumann M150 is a modern valve (vacuum tube) microphone with all the character that the valve gives but designed for modern ultra low noise digital recording.

The new M 150 Tube* takes many of the features from the original M 50 and incorporates them in a very modern microphone. With low self noise, a Titanium membrane and capsule, transformerless tube amplifier and sophisticated power supply, the M 150 Tube is not a reissue but an entirely new microphone in its own right.

The FLEA50 is a superbly engineered copy of the original Neumann M50.

FLEA 50 is our replica of famous M50 microphone. All mechanical parts are identical to original. FLEA 50 is fitted with our own capsule and transformer. As you know, this mic is great to use on AB stereo recording technique. Best for symphonic orchestra miking or as a spot microphone for acoustic instruments. This is not end of use of this microphone. Try and you will love it !!! Clear and pleasant sound. The full set includes microphone in wooden box, PSU, cable, and of course safe flight case.

You should try and listen to both to see which gives you the sound you want - these are the two best IMHO.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

To be clear, I have and love the Flea 49 but haven't heard the Flea m50.

I love both the FLEA 49 and the FLEA 50. You can listen to them here.

[Wunderkap]

I agree with Roundbadges findings. But to be fair, technically the CM50 that Roundbadge is referring to was a few years back were actually the first ones we ever made (before serial number 01) and had a proto capsule that we ended up dumping and switching for a totally different capsule. This early capsule was not too flattering in the low end, noisy and very susceptible to damage.

Except for Serial Number 01, 02, 03 (which later ended up with new capsules) all CM50s sold have had the later production run capsule. If you are still interested in listening to one Roundbadge, we can send one out to compare to your M50 and for future forum references.

Last year motion picture film score recording engineer Shawn Murphy purchased four CM50's for orchestral use and compared to he Neumann M50's he wrote "low end is the same, pattern is the same, reach is the same - your CM50 is very close in character. You've made a terrific mic!! Very very impressive."

Fox studios also purchased several on Shawns recommendation, with another client purchasing eight. The capsule was definitely the "Achilles' heel", being the only thing that we changed since the prototype.

[RoundBadge]

that's great to hear Mike.
I had a feeling they were a work in progress when we had them.
curious to hear the latest sometime

[studio1117]

Also dont forget U47 owners the kick azz 4750 capsule from Flea to convert your U47/48 into an M50. If you already own some U4X series mics.

[klaukholm]

while flea makes an excellent 49 (we have three), they do not have a capsule that rivals the m50 or the m150.
If you do not get the capsule right, you will never be able to compete with tlm50, M150 or M50.

As for the comment about the tlm50 being unworthy of discussion here, I would question if you have even used the mic in its intended application.

We have 5 m150, two tlm50 here and I would have it no other way.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

while flea makes an excellent 49 (we have three), they do not have a capsule that rivals the m50 or the m150.

Did you compare directly the FLEA 50 with your M150s et TLM50s ?
Is there a significant soud difference between the M150 or TLM50 ?
If you would have to use them for solo piano recording, which ones would you prefer ?

[David Spearritt]

We have a Goldberg Variations coming out imminently on Centaur recorded with a pair of M150's as the mains through Forssell SMP2 and MADC2. Sounds absolutely gorgeous.

[Johns]

Although thrown out of the discussion, the Bottle with the B4 cap is an excellent combination. I have not used an M50, and would guess the Bottle/B4 combo is not the same, but that mic has excellent low end, clear sound, and very good reach. It's size makes use cumbersome at times. Just throwing that out there.

[Unique]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The other alternative for the M50 is the new Neumann KK 133.

This is the interchangeable head for the KM-D and KM-A series and uses the same titanium transducer as it used in the M150 / TLM 50.

The picture below shows the KK 133 on the KM-D (but the KM-A would look the same other than the colour of the Neumann Diamond):

which is an amazing microphone (with ball) in segment range ... compete with Sennheiser MKH-20, DPA 4006, Schoeps MK2H (special app. Neumann GFM-132)

[synthetic]

Originally Posted by Wunderkap

Last year motion picture film score recording engineer Shawn Murphy purchased four CM50's for orchestral use and compared to he Neumann M50's he wrote "low end is the same, pattern is the same, reach is the same - your CM50 is very close in character. You've made a terrific mic!! Very very impressive."

Fox studios also purchased several on Shawns recommendation, with another client purchasing eight. The capsule was definitely the "Achilles' heel", being the only thing that we changed since the prototype.

Can you say which scores the mics have been used on for the main tree?

[studentjohn36]

Originally Posted by Johns

Although thrown out of the discussion, the Bottle with the B4 cap is an excellent combination. I have not used an M50, and would guess the Bottle/B4 combo is not the same, but that mic has excellent low end, clear sound, and very good reach. It's size makes use cumbersome at times. Just throwing that out there.

And to toss the red herring in here: two (sadly discontinued) Blue Omnimouse mics. In the opening frame you can see them hanging on their spreader bar:

Symphonic Chocolates (by Maxime Goulet) - YouTube

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

We have a Goldberg Variations coming out imminently on Centaur recorded with a pair of M150's as the mains through Forssell SMP2 and MADC2. Sounds absolutely gorgeous.

BACH, J.S.: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988 (Noble) | ClassicsOnline Classical Music CD mp3 downloads | Free preview streaming | CRC3135 from Centaur

[didier.brest]

Hi David,

I listened the recording on Qobuz, which I'm subscriber of. Is this piano really a Steinway as suggested by this picture on Colin Noble's blog entitled Recording Bach ?



It sounds very different from the Steinways that we are used to, for instance in Murray Perahia's recording.
. Sounding different from a new Steinway is certainly not a drawback as itself but I have to make me used to this sound...

The piano sounds rather close, near as close like in the 1981 recording from Glen Gould, although the mic stand on the photo is rather far. Did you intend to get this proximity ? I think it is quite convenient for this work although unlike most recent recordings, for instance Perahia-Sony, Schiff-ECM,Sohn-Honens, Jalbert-ATMA or Angelich-Virgin. Counter examples: Pienaard-Avie and Jendo-Naxos
The piano is a bit too wide for my taste.
It is difficult for me to say something about the mics because I miss a reference.

[David Spearritt]

Didier, interesting observations. It was an old Steinway that had been rebuilt so it may have had such a significant "upgrade" that it has lost some sort of Steinway signature. I dunno, and am not into "piano" signatures in such a way to tell.

The recording was made with a main pair of M150's with DPA 4006 outriggers, so four omnis altogether. I guess the 4006 are about 6dB lower than the mains. Forsell SMP2 preamps for both pairs. The M150's are at least 3m away and high in the air, so not close.

But the M150 has such focus and reach that they sound closer than any other omni I have used. I think the closeness in the sound depends on the variation you are listening to. We wanted a very intimate but ethereal sound and more listenable than other recordings of the Goldbergs that frankly sound like broken glass. I have the Perahia one and it is very nice, and I have many others.

Here is another photo of the session to show you mic positions.

[didier.brest]

Thank you David for you very interesting information about the mics. Indeed it is surprising to get this proximity of the instrument with the mics at such large distance. The early reflections in this big room shall be weak, it may help. I guess that I would have preferred a recording without the outriggers. It is just a matter of personal taste.

[David Spearritt]

Didier, are you listening on headphones or on good loudspeakers? I would agree somewhat with your assessment for headphones, but on loudpseakers on mid to low volume it is ideal to my ear.

[didier.brest]

I listened on yesterday evening and I am currently listening on monitors (PSI A17-M) in my living room. At some places, I feel lows being surprisingly disconnected from the core of the sound.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I feel at some places lows being surprisingly disconnected from the core of the sound.

Do you need some new loudspeakers?