Choices

[davemc]

Hey Guys,

I thought I would again float some choices around for perusal.
I am currently re-building the studio, and re-opening it for other engineers as well as myself..
I have updated a lot of gear lately, short list of what I have now.
PT HD3 with 192 and two 96io's.
Mics: U99,iFet, SF12, M160's etc etc
Outboard: ISA430, 1178, Vari-Mu, 2254/e(pair), Elan dual, Calrec Dual, Buzz Audio dual, API 3124+, Pultec, Fatso and 1969.
So outboard and mics pretty good. I do need FX though.

So working on the custom furniture setup for the Control24. Really I see it as the weakest link and been thinking about a real Console. So I might go more into debt to get one before reopening.

So Choices...I cannot get something with a large footprint, maybe 2.5 meters tops..

a) Keep the Control24
Add a Dangerous buss or something for summing and add patchbay a few $k's.

b) Neve 5116 for sale locally, 36 channel although full of I/C's with patchbay. Maintenance hassles maybe although with 36 strips would have a few to play with as I have 24 PT outs. Although supposed to be in good shape. Never know could be true

c) Also locally MCI 500 and 600, Harrison MR-3 and MR-4..

d) Open as is and save(or loan up to) something new like a Amek Media51 or Audient 8024. Both I can get locally..Might be able to screw them down on price as they are new..

[Jules]

I think it might be hard for outside enginners to get the hang of Pro Tools consoles. in my experience they often dont like them much, so I would go for the analog desk option to cover yourself...

Nor do I think having a Dangerous 2 bus would get very much appreciation from outside engineers either...

Traditional console / patchbay is your best bet IMHO if you want to go the 'open studio' route...

[davemc]

Thanks Jules,

Yes that is the feedback I am getting, the control24 is looked at a little like a toy. The room will be good . I have a bit of outboard now....
Most people would prefer a real console, if they wanted to work the room..I had money set aside for a patchbay and dangerous.. So I can use that towards a console with the $'s from the Control24. Maybe sell off the ISA and another pre and I am almost there $ wise.

The big question is what? There is not the availability here in OZ.
The 5116 is available now, just over US$20k... Do not know what will come up later.

There are a lot of Ameks, Soundcrafts, Soundtracs, a few MCI's and the Harrisons around. I do not want to end up with a maintence nightmare.. The harrison MR4 is meant to be in great shape though and just over half the 5116 $$'s.

[Jay Kahrs]

An MCI would probably the biggest nightmare unless it's been gone through, had the switches replaced and been recapped. The Harrison is probably next in line, they run really hot and tended to eat caps. Though, once they're replaced it should be great for a lotta years.

[davemc]

Thanks Jay,

Not really any tridents out here.. There is a 80 locally, a small place I never heard off. Just looked at there web is no longer there.. Might ring tomorrow to see if they are still around...
Like do I say "hey ringing about your studio, is it closing down, do you want to sell the 80" feel like a right prick..

[DirkB]

Hi Dave,

Have you thought of a digital console as an option?
The Sony DMX-R100 or the DM2000 could be a nice console to base your setup on, but I'm not sure what the " engineers to atract " would think of it.

Good luck,
Dirk

[jon]

I would look into lease-to-buy financing and buy a used SSL, Neve or API, maybe an Amek if you're adventurous commercial-wise. The buck pretty much stops there (at least, in most markets) for analog desks that outside guys want to come in and do music projects on.

Also, the desk should have less than a decade on it and ideally come with a 12-month service warranty ...unless you have a really good tech available working for you and don't mind the studio being closed a lot for down time. Keep in mind that you'll also want/need a few spare channels & faders, a complete spare parts kit, all the maintenance documentation, and full electronic schematics of the console. And if you don't have them yet, you'll need a good oscilloscope/analyzer, voltmeters, tone generator, solder joint remover, and some good soldering stations.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by DirkB
Have you thought of a digital console as an option?
The Sony DMX-R100 or the DM2000 could be a nice console to base your setup on, but I'm not sure what the " engineers to atract " would think of it.

Most outside engineers I know don't want to bother with a digital desk. In most cases they need to learn them before they can route audio. An analog desk is an analog desk, just about any monkey can figure one out.

For the most part I'm going to agree with Jon, but there are lots of other things that would attract music engineers. Neotek, Amek, Harrison, Trident, D&R and higher end Soundcrafts (TS24 & up) are all consoles I'm ok with in the indie rock world.

As long as they work.

[davemc]

Originally posted by mdbeh
I'm sure this is obvious... but that's really important. Things that wouldn't be a big deal at your own place--avoid channel 27, and oh, by the way, buss 9-10 is kinda crackly--are bad, bad news if you're freelancing.

So be careful if something's a fixer-upper...

And thats the whole ball game.. All the desks are over 10 years old (some 20) and everyones right about up keep.

I really do not think I have the physical space for a even a small SSL... only just over 2.5 meters.

I did think of the Sony and someone else mentioned just getting a 02r96. Actually digital desks probably have a bigger learning curve then the control24 for someone to come in. So I agree with Jay here..

New I could push up to a (Audient or D&R) or maybe stretch to a Amek media 51.. A new Elan is an option as well although you have to get them shipped from the US. The Amek and Audient distributors are in the same state will call them today.

So what are anyones thoughs on the 5116?

[davemc]

Ok update.
The 5116 is totally re-cappped and ready to go. Thanks Wiggy..
For the same money there is a ex-demo 36 channel audient 8024 local.

The neve has a name and will re hold the $$$'s
The Audient is a new design, seems a real good layout and well new...

So what do people think in a death match type struggle

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by davemc
Ok update.
The 5116 is totally re-cappped and ready to go. Thanks Wiggy..
For the same money there is a ex-demo 36 channel audient 8024 local.

The neve has a name and will re hold the $$$'s
The Audient is a new design, seems a real good layout and well new...

So what do people think in a death match type struggle

If you are planning to mix on it, go with the Amek Media 51.

It is surround ready, snapshot automation of EQ's and pans,virtual dynamics,and Supertrue automation which everyone pretty much knows.

Also that it has Neve pre's and Eq's doesn't hurt either.

[davemc]

Thanks Thrill,

Actually the media 51 is double the price of the 5116 or Audient.
So a little to much.

DirkB,

I have had a couple of other emails about the Sony.
A lot of people use it, and it looks great spec wise and layout..
Anyone here use one with PT HD??
Bring in the tracks AES or lightpipe. I have 16 ADAT and 8 AES free with my IO boxes.

Also was told to check out the D&R Orion..
I think Dave Martins got one.

Thanks again for your help...

[ExistanceMusic]

Dave, is this the 5116 36ch on Mixmasters?

[davemc]

Yep....If it goes before I checked out all the options then it does... I cannot rush into spending US$20k on something.

Personally I do not know if I want to deal with the old console thing. Even if it has a NEVE name..
Its been recapped.. Although pots,faders...........
I know what Wiggy says...

Hey man if you want to catch up on the weekend or one night this a week give me a call.

[hammer]

Hey Dave, i'd be careful about the old deskitis. Even if it is a neve.
Rockinghorse studio's (Byron Bay) recently had to recap their Vseries Neve. I heard through the grapevine that it cost nearly 90k AU. It's a cool desk and everything that comes out of that studio sounds great BUT 90k in maintenance and downtime?!!!! not to mention the 10k AU in maintenance that they have to pay anyway per annum.
You might want to do a bit of market research and see exactly where your studio fits in. If your going to still be doing the indy scene in australia an old neve is going to be hard to justify. The market here just isn't big enough to pay for the upkeep of an old girl like that.

If your studio is going to get hired out to other engineers what are they going to be hiring your studio for? Tracking? Overdubs, Mixing or the whole banana?

It seems to me that the only 2 real choices that you have are the audient and the procontrol-2bus.

For this sort of decision i fear that you may have to throw your heart out the window (for it's own protection) and make a conscientious business decision.

Anyway, I don;t mean to sound like a kiljoy, just don't want to see another good engineer, doing it for the right reasons go under.

Peace
H.

[studjo]

Originally posted by davemc

Also was told to check out the D&R Orion..
I think Dave Martins got one.

I'm the guy who raves about the Orion all the time. Dave is even luckier he got a D&R Cinemix. The Cinemix is the bigger desk (with surround, moving fader, dual signal path,... I think - Dave knows it)
The Orion is not a big money desk. You can't compare it to a SSL. (Although I like the sound as much.) It should be easy for any "real" outside engineer to work the desk in an hour. I studied the picture of the channel strip and mixed a record the other day.

But I think if you want to attract outside engineers you need a SSL or a Neve. But your looking at a huge amount of money here.

All I can say buy a real console if you wanna rock 'n roll Which one I can't say.

[davemc]

Thanks guys,
I have been getting private emails as well.

I am demoing the Audient on Monday.
Will have a look at an Neotek Elite in town, similar to the Esprit for sale that has a lot of broadcast stuff.
See if I can have a better play with the 51 series local as well.

Hammer,
Orginally I was thinking of running the room as a tracking studio you could take elsewhere to finishing mixing if you wanted. Good gear, room and real good rates.

I was looking at giving it a another 1-2 years then update the desk.... The rooms are being built now and should sound great (the control room is coming up real nice), hence I thinking of trying to keep some of the customers in house..

Everyone I have asked has not said keep the control24 if you want to do this..

[davemc]

Ok,

Was reading Bear's thread about downgrading to upgrade.

Was thinking a real desk would give me:
Summing
no latencey bussing.
EQ's(alough compaed to the massenberg? HD EQ)
Quick start up for people.

I would loose.
Total recall of mixes (ex outboard).
Flying faders.
5.1 compatability.

Do the pros outway the cons, as really Hammer is right how much more work would I get?

The Egonomics of the control24 are crap..
Wonder if a pro control and edit pack is a better way to go.
Or the Sony board...
The summing is supposed to be better the Pro Tools..
I wonder what the onboard comps and eq's are like..
Compared to the HD massenberg and song comps...
Although if 96k does start becoming the standard the board gets reduced to half when running it.

[hammer]

Who's hiring your studio at the moment? Local Bands? Small Labels, Med Labels, Majors? Add agencies?

Why are they Hiring you? Is it because of your equipment or because of you?

HOw much work are you currently getting with your current setup?

Do you need more work?

Can you afford to have more debt?

How much extra work will the new gear bring in?

All this sort of stuff should help you decide which way to go.
Maybe you should do a survey? Ask all of your clients/potential clients what they want and how much they are prepared to pay for it.

Whichever way you go you won't be able to please everybody.
Some people will only want to work with tape. Others will ONLY mix in Protools (seriously - It's happening). If you get the neve, you'll lose a few gigs to cats who only do the ssl thang.
Then you'll have all of the project studio guys who hate using protools and can't understand why everyone isn't using cubase/sonar dp3, 4 track cassette?!!!

Bands ususally don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to studios. They know Neve is good and protools is good, other than that they don't care. If they like what you have done previously, that's all they care about. Whether it was done in cube-arse or 301, if they dig it, they'll call you up.

Producers on the other hand are tricky, and the dudes you'll want to be gearing your studio towards for studio hire (as opposed to dave hire). The best way to entice them to use your studio seems to be funnilly enough...ca$h! If you can offer them a cut of the day rate, they'll use your studio over other studio's cause THEY MAKE MORE MONEY. Obviously your gear will have to be up to snuff (enter console dilemma!), but this depends on the producers. Like I was saying B4 some dude might prefer ssl/neve...mackie 8bus, protools?! They might only want to use your studio for protools overdubs, which would make the console redundant.
They might want to track to tape (enter new dilemma), they might want to mix analogue....whatever. You've probably got a whole bunch of producers/friends/aquaintences in mind, who may be possible customers...ring em up. Ask them if you could provide.(insert service here)..... would they be interested?

I dunno, just throwing ideas in the air here. Hope this helps. Feel free to pm me if u want.

Whichever way you go, all the best!

H.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by mdbeh
I'm sure this is obvious... but that's really important. Things that wouldn't be a big deal at your own place--avoid channel 27, and oh, by the way, buss 9-10 is kinda crackly--are bad, bad news if you're freelancing.

This might sound dumb, but as a freelancer I don't mind that kind of stuff IF (big keyword there) I know about it when I walk into the room and before it becomes an issue in the middle of a session. Shit breaks all the time and keeping everything running at 100% without a full time maintance staff is pretty much impossible. When I come in and half the channels aren't working, every knob crackles and some switches have to be smacked just to pass signal. Well, that's a major problem. If the desk is at least 90% functional I'm a happy guy and will work around whatever little problems are there.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by davemc
Thanks Thrill,

Actually the media 51 is double the price of the 5116 or Audient.
So a little to much.

DirkB,

I have had a couple of other emails about the Sony.
A lot of people use it, and it looks great spec wise and layout..
Anyone here use one with PT HD??
Bring in the tracks AES or lightpipe. I have 16 ADAT and 8 AES free with my IO boxes.

Also was told to check out the D&R Orion..
I think Dave Martins got one.

Thanks again for your help...

Dave, the Media 51 is steps ahead of the Audient.

I think you can get a 28 channel version for a little more than $20K.

Also it has virtual reset and its setup to mix in 5.1 right out of the box.

Its footprint is not too large and its easy to wire up.

[davemc]

Hi Hammer,

Yes I am asking around and asking here. Everyone works different.
Price wise its going to very reasonable. around AUD$450 a day
no engineer. Maybe more if I update the desk.
I have a day job in IT so I can let the studio build up over a year or so without the money problems which helps. I can also pay of the debt.

At the moment I am stuck in the little indie stuff.
The room was orginaly done by me cheaply.
Looked like shit, sounded good although had acoustic probs mixing in the control room, I knew it so I could use it.
Renting the room out was not really a way to go.

The new place will have nice acoustics and I have been updating the outboard and mics. So a nice kit.

Last opionion I got was if you were not going to put something in there with automation like a refirb SSL/Euphonix. Why bother as people will mix elsewhere anyway. Save the money an buy more pres and mics.

[davemc]

Hi Thrill,

When I rang locally around AUD$60k(US$40k). The Audient is AUD$30k. I could get a refirb SSL for around AUD$60k plus..

The other thing I was told today. Get on a plane and go to the US and buy one and cart it back..

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by davemc
Hi Hammer,

Yes I am asking around and asking here. Everyone works different.
Price wise its going to very reasonable. around AUD$450 a day
no engineer. Maybe more if I update the desk.
I have a day job in IT so I can let the studio build up over a year or so without the money problems which helps. I can also pay of the debt.

At the moment I am stuck in the little indie stuff.
The room was orginaly done by me cheaply.
Looked like shit, sounded good although had acoustic probs mixing in the control room, I knew it so I could use it.
Renting the room out was not really a way to go.

The new place will have nice acoustics and I have been updating the outboard and mics. So a nice kit.

Last opionion I got was if you were not going to put something in there with automation like a refirb SSL/Euphonix. Why bother as people will mix elsewhere anyway. Save the money an buy more pres and mics.

If automation isn't a big deal than maybe something like this:

******//www.odysseyprosound.com/API-SM.html

I think its around $18KUS.

If automation is a necessity:

******//www.odysseyprosound.com/AmekMedia-KM.html

They want $34K but I am sure you can negotiate. The mic pre's are really good, so you can save and spend the money elsewhere.

I also like the Neoteks.

[davemc]

Thanks Thrill,

I do not know of any API desks down under. Looks nice..

Seeing Audient on Monday
Playing with Local Neve 51 mid next week
Seeing Neotek Elite next week as well.

Other wisdoms of advise given today
Keep Control24 buy more Nice Mics and outboard.
Wait a year then pickup a refirb SSL.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by davemc
Last opionion I got was if you were not going to put something in there with automation like a refirb SSL/Euphonix. Why bother as people will mix elsewhere anyway. Save the money an buy more pres and mics.

People want to mix in nice rooms all the time, though I get more tracking work. One of my friends has a place in Brooklyn with an 80C and Uptown that gets lots of mixing work. I'd skip a Euphonix if you want outside engineers, I've heard too many horror storys about the user interface.

If you want outside engineers you also need to be careful about how much outboard you have. Most people make money by renting their stuff to the session at the top end. The indie guys might dig it but most people will still bring their own stuff in. If I were you I'd put in at least 24 or even 48 channels of tie-lines to the outboard island. There are a few places that I'd work at but they don't have tie-lines so I can't bring in my own outboard and I can only use what they have in the racks.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by davemc

Wait a year then pickup a refirb SSL.

How many channels on the refurbished SSL? What kind of automation?

How many HD 192 boxes do you have? How many outputs?


To do a full mix on SSL these days you need a minimum of 64-72 channels(this means at least 48 tracks hitting the console). Anything less and it becomes a hassle to mix on that console. Also the automation is important(in order to do a recall). Also if its an older SSL(E/G) for example, most guys like the black EQ's(which means more money).

I think a refirb SSL in excellent shape,64-72 channels, with Black EQ's and Ultimation, will be way more than $20K.

[Bernd G]

We just bought our 4056 G/G+ without black eq. and with VCA automation only for US $ 75K. After intense shopping I thought it was an excellent price. Also, consider the kind of energy bill you will rack up with such a console - first the juice that goes in, and then the juice you need to keep the room cool --- this alone can cost quite a bit ! Then think of the maintenance. Replacing the bus switches only on the SSL was about $10,000. My advice - buy a more recent console. The AMEK Media 51 sounds very interesting even though personally I am not a great fan of AMEK consoles. THRILL - did you actually hear anything done on the MEDIA 51 ? I am curious. FWIW, also check out the OTARIs. A friend has a Concept Elite and has been very successful with it (he has a small NEVE that he uses for the mic pres). I like the interface of the AUDIENT (very clear layout, friendly design), but I would be always suspicious of newcomers in the console business. Similar to software, you want them to be around when trouble is brewing in the future.
Cheers

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Jay.. one consideration is that it is Australia and that there is NO such thing as a budget locally......well in very few and scant cases. I think the choice of studio is kinda made ont he equipment, sound and vibe. Locally most of the hire houses and sold off thier hire stock or put it into newer studios. I can think of 3 places in the last 2 years that have sold off their hire stock or put it into a new studio (sing sing) There simply is not the market locally for hire purchases. The home recording thing has certainly changed things locally as well as the availability of high end front end for home recording, wherby most people over here have a 737 and sit at home and do everything through that etc..

THrill the largest SSL locally is the new 9K @ sing sing.. its a full 72 channel monster.. some whow that wont fit into Dave's room... lol. He worked out the largest he could get in was a 4040 which for his intents and purposes is more than apt.

decisons decisions...

Wiggy

[ExistanceMusic]

Went and had a look at the 9K this morning
It's just enormous, and the room sounds fantastic!
George are doing their next album in there in october, thats the earliest big project the guys had up on the board, that's gunna be one sweeeet sounding record if they use the console to the max, but even so, recouping that investment is gonna take an incredibly long time.
Sure is a rough time to be spending big in Melbourne.