Tight Big Bass?

jjaacc1 · 1st August 2003

Here is all the gear I have to record bass:
73 jazz bass
69 P bass
Steinberger

I have an avalon U5, a Speck EQ and an RNC Compressor.
For pluggins I have the Waves Gold, the UAD-1 Card (1176 and La2a compressors)

I am getting good bass sounds, But I feel they are just not tight enough, or when i get them tight, they dont have any big low end. I want to get the bass sounds similar to Eric Wilsons on any of the Long Beach Dub Allstar cds or the Sublime Self Titled. Post away, thanks alot for the help.

John

Heterodox · 2nd August 2003

My first question would be what are you monitoring on and how is your room?

You must be able to hear the bass properly to mix it properly.

jjaacc1 · 2nd August 2003

I have behringer truth's, mackies and event ps5's, mostly the mackies though. The room is a small room that sounds pretty good. Its warm sounding, and not very reflective.

John

Heterodox · 2nd August 2003

Multi micing can make for a powerful sound. You mentioned the U5 (great for DI tightness), but have you tried mixing it with a mic (or two) placed on an actual bass cabinet? The hyped low end of good cabs (powered by a warm+phat tube preamp of course) are very different than a DI. Its the smooth booming yin to the razor tight yang. Further than that you can even close-mic the bass itself for more metal/scrape sounds. Playing with small amounts of panning on these mixed tracks can add space and create a bigger sound.

I think (especially if you are recording straight to digital) mixing something dirty with your high-voltage Class A "Ultra Precise" type tracks would add alot to the "big low end."

I'd ask myself what amp/cabinet E.W. used. Last I heard it was a Mobass with all sorts of SWR cabs. If you're familiar with a particular combintation's sound in a live aspect, it will be much easier to emulate it recorded. You've listened to the afforementioned CD's on your monitor setups and not just in the car, correct? Study them a bit more and pay attention to how dirty they are. I don't think I'd put Eric Wilson and U5 in the same paragraph...Sublime revolved around sweaty/funky/dirty/nasty.

Hope some of that helps.
Just my extremely uneducated opinion(s).

stakeoutstudios · 2nd August 2003

The only problem with multi-miking is you can run into phase issues unless you do a little trick.

Work out which you prefer the top sound and which you prefer the bottom of... now create a virtual crossover on two separate tracks using two EQ's High pass on one mic, Low Pass on the other, crossing at the same frequencies.

Combine the two, sometimes sounds great!

Having said that sometimes you can be lucky with the whole phase issue and mix both together.

Also experiment with miking the cab more or less distantly.

Make sure the room's acoustically pretty dead (unless going for an effect) and if you haven't got a suspended mount for your mic, try putting the bass cab on a cushion... lol it works!

jbuntz · 2nd August 2003

A Little Labs IBP will help "tightness" with multiple sources.

ozraves · 2nd August 2003

I've said it before that I like the A Designs mic preamp DI for big bass sound. It's fairly clean but its big in the monitors and tight at the same time.

One of the other Gear Slutz members helped design or test the A Designs REDDI (as in "red DI") and reports its the best bass DI ever (or some other sort of big statement like it). I'd tend to believe it given the nice bass image from their preamps. I don't know when the REDDI is coming out. But, I'd keep it in mind.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

jon · 3rd August 2003

I'll second the IBP. I've been using one for the past two days and it's the best mix of mic+DI I've ever heard on a bass. Tight yet full bottom end without EQ or filtering.

e-cue · 3rd August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by ozraves
One of the other Gear Slutz members helped design or test the A Designs REDDI (as in "red DI") and reports its the best bass DI ever (or some other sort of big statement like it). I'd tend to believe it given the nice bass image from their preamps. I don't know when the REDDI is coming out. But, I'd keep it in mind.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

Tis I. Love the Reddi. Spent a crapload of time shipping prototypes all over the place doing revision after revision after revision. Quite frankly, I was a total pain in the ass. I'm suprised they put up with me. It's like a Demeter Tube Di (used to be my fav) with more range and lower noise. Thus far, it's won every blind test I've given to every engineer. While it is great on bass (the president of the company is a bass player) the differences are much more noticeable on electric guitar DI'ed stuff, esspecially with Strats. It's also built like a tank. I'll post a pic when I get back to my homebase to back that claim up.

Back to the orignally poster, I never really thought Sublime's bass sounded 'tight'. It's all sub, like something you'd hear on a Steel Pulse record. I would suggest recording the bass as flat as you can through the Avalon, which I also love, and in the mix try multing the bass:
Tight bass: DBX160xt (on the Fender, play close attention to the 1K range)
Low sub bass: RNC -> Pultec / DBX120 Subharmonics Synth (do NOT even bother with the Ultrabass Berhinger unit unless you want all sub. It doesn't play well with other signals...) Check your phase against everything else in the mix. A lot of people fail to do that. And that's another great spot for the IBP mentioned.

Jax · 3rd August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by e-cue
Check your phase against everything else in the mix. A lot of people fail to do that. And that's another great spot for the IBP mentioned.

Yo cue - what do you mean?

How does one check the bass's phase against everything else in the mix?

Are you talking about recording the whole band at once with multiple bass mics or somethin?

In reply to the topic, I could go for tighter bass sounds too. The Big Bottom Pro plug is how I get it big sounding. So far right at 60hz is almost always the right place.
If you use it, just don't let it do any compression within the plug-in. It sounds like crap if you do. The trick is to keep turning down the drive until the compression (yellow upside down meter) doesn't activate at all. After that, fully crank the output (I forget what it's called). And don't use the tracking button, it adds mud.

alphajerk · 3rd August 2003

either sublimes stuff was augmented with a moog [ish] synth or subharmonic generator. i lost their first album, was that the ST one? or their last was the ST?

De chromium cob · 3rd August 2003

All that stuff is tracked analog....Track to two inch and you'll have the low end your looking for. You could also get closer by mixing through a analog board to half inch two track....Sure, I suppose you can achieve that sound without tape- but it will probably be more frustrating and time consuming....

alphajerk · 3rd August 2003

shit, a LOT of sublimes stuff was done to 4track cassette.

jjaacc1 · 3rd August 2003

Your right, alot of sublime stuff is very sub. I read that for the self titled record, eric wilson used the dbx subharmonic unit and an ampeg classic head into an 18" subwoofer and mic'd that in with a U67 going to tape. He uses a much different rig now.
But check out a few tracks from eric wilsons Bass on his newest Long Beach Dub All Stars wonders of the world. That album sounds amazing. He used a custom Koll bass (Similar to steinberger sound) into an avalon 737 and some other stuff im not sure about. This is One of my personal favorite sounding records.

Back to my question, I have been rolling off 40 and below on the bass in my mixes, is that a bad idea? I just thought it was too much low bass for most peoples systems.
Also, while tracking bass with the RNC or DBX 160XT, what settings would you reccomend? Thanks

John

e-cue · 3rd August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jax
Yo cue - what do you mean?

How does one check the bass's phase against everything else in the mix?

Are you talking about recording the whole band at once with multiple bass mics or somethin?

In reply to the topic, I could go for tighter bass sounds too. The Big Bottom Pro plug is how I get it big sounding. So far right at 60hz is almost always the right place.
If you use it, just don't let it do any compression within the plug-in. It sounds like crap if you do. The trick is to keep turning down the drive until the compression (yellow upside down meter) doesn't activate at all. After that, fully crank the output (I forget what it's called). And don't use the tracking button, it adds mud.

? #1 : Yes.

? #2 : Yes.

I was mainly refering to checking the bass against everything else. Years ago, I was working on a track, and just couldn't get it. Flipped the phase on the bass and bam... Done deal. Everything fell into place. Sometimes, one is not so lucky and there are just certain elements that don't jive well. Enter our beloved IBP.

Same thing with checking the Kick drum phase against the OH's and the rest of the kit. I prefer the sound of the SPL Vitalizer for the sub harmonics stuff. It's always beat out the Big Bottom plug in and hardware unit anytime I've a/b'ed them.

40 Ounce to Freedom is a masterpeice IMO. Their bassist used to live next door to a bassist that I was in a band with back in the day in Florida. I think they called him "cricket" back then.

mml · 4th August 2003

If you're bouncing to disk, it's very difficult to get tight, big bass. Mix through a board to tape. It makes a huge difference. I just did this for the first time and not only is the midrange more present, but the bass is so much less mushy it's ridiculous. Even try going to cassette if you don't have access to a reel to reel machine. You might be surprised. 1/4" two tracks are very affordable now. And get some monitors so that you can really hear what's going on. None of those monitors you mentioned have a very true low-end response. Sell them all off and get one good pair if possible.

I agree with the opinion that there's some sub-synth processing going on in some of the Sublime stuff. He does get a great sound!

Trust me on analog. You'll never go back. Oh, and I wouldn't use the RNC for bass. It just doesn't excel in that application. You could also try a Sans Amp Classic to augment the DI sound. I got mine used for $100 and it's excellent for bass, Drums, vocals, accoustic...just not guitar! Just ask Mr. Blake.

Zep Dude · 5th August 2003

I'll go along with the analog tape suggestions here. Even if you can't go to tape, a beefy outboard EQ and a good compressor (not overdone) will give you what you'll NEVER get with plugins.

I'm constantly reminded of that. I was just trying to get some real bottom out of a zurdo (big brazilian drum). Tracked it with a Mastering Lab Pre into a DB tech converter. Tried the Waves C4, Linear MB, Sony and a few others -even an L1. Finally thought I was making headway, but then I put it through my ouboard Fatso with compression -not even a comparison. All those plugins were a joke compared to the sound of the Fatso with compression.

Interestingly, I also ran it through a Massive Passive but found that I was able to get the EQ I wanted from the Sony, Linear Multiband and Waves Ren EQ. I took a good amount of time setting each of them up because I was curious how the plugin EQ's measured up. Very impressive. The EQ plugins are really getting good (although I think the Pultec might still edge any of them out for low end), but the compressors are still very anemic compared to good outboard analog.

NathanEldred · 5th August 2003

The DI in the Great River NV is tight as it gets. If you want something a little 'softer' try a Groove Tubes DITTO.

jjaacc1 · 6th August 2003

I have tracked bass through the Hi-z Input of the MP-2NV and its ALL midrange. I wasnt getting any big bottom at all.

DirkB · 6th August 2003

For me,

A lot of the tightness in the low-end is kick-bass interaction. For example:
kick peaking at 63Hz, lot's of cut at 250-300, little roll-of or shelf to roll of 3-6db below 63Hz. This gives room for the weight in the bass which I find lays in the 125-500 range. A little roll of also starting at 50Hz and usually I'm getting in the ballpark.
Just tight bassguitar? I couldn't say, has to agree with the kick.

Greetings,
Dirk

lucey · 6th August 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by jjaacc1
I have tracked bass through the Hi-z Input of the MP-2NV and its ALL midrange. I wasnt getting any big bottom at all.

GTQ2

2nd August 2003	#3
jjaacc1 Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New York Posts: 34 Thread Starter	Mostly Mackies I have behringer truth's, mackies and event ps5's, mostly the mackies though. The room is a small room that sounds pretty good. Its warm sounding, and not very reflective. John

3rd August 2003	#8
jon Capitol Studios Paris Join Date: May 2002 Location: Paris, France Posts: 1,307	I'll second the IBP. I've been using one for the past two days and it's the best mix of mic+DI I've ever heard on a bass. Tight yet full bottom end without EQ or filtering. __________________ Jon Atack Capitol Studios - Paris, France

3rd August 2003	#11
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,260	either sublimes stuff was augmented with a moog [ish] synth or subharmonic generator. i lost their first album, was that the ST one? or their last was the ST? __________________ "i must invent my own systems or else be enslaved by other men's'" william blake __________________________ email: barrett [at] alphajerk [dot] com

3rd August 2003	#12
De chromium cob Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,655	All that stuff is tracked analog....Track to two inch and you'll have the low end your looking for. You could also get closer by mixing through a analog board to half inch two track....Sure, I suppose you can achieve that sound without tape- but it will probably be more frustrating and time consuming.... __________________ "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Tolstoy Scott Benson Blue Ridge Mastering

3rd August 2003	#14
jjaacc1 Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New York Posts: 34 Thread Starter	Hey E-Cue, I made a mistake Your right, alot of sublime stuff is very sub. I read that for the self titled record, eric wilson used the dbx subharmonic unit and an ampeg classic head into an 18" subwoofer and mic'd that in with a U67 going to tape. He uses a much different rig now. But check out a few tracks from eric wilsons Bass on his newest Long Beach Dub All Stars wonders of the world. That album sounds amazing. He used a custom Koll bass (Similar to steinberger sound) into an avalon 737 and some other stuff im not sure about. This is One of my personal favorite sounding records. Back to my question, I have been rolling off 40 and below on the bass in my mixes, is that a bad idea? I just thought it was too much low bass for most peoples systems. Also, while tracking bass with the RNC or DBX 160XT, what settings would you reccomend? Thanks John

1st August 2003	#1
jjaacc1 Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New York Posts: 34 Thread Starter	Tight Big Bass? Here is all the gear I have to record bass: 73 jazz bass 69 P bass Steinberger I have an avalon U5, a Speck EQ and an RNC Compressor. For pluggins I have the Waves Gold, the UAD-1 Card (1176 and La2a compressors) I am getting good bass sounds, But I feel they are just not tight enough, or when i get them tight, they dont have any big low end. I want to get the bass sounds similar to Eric Wilsons on any of the Long Beach Dub Allstar cds or the Sublime Self Titled. Post away, thanks alot for the help. John

2nd August 2003	#2
Heterodox Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 289	My first question would be what are you monitoring on and how is your room? You must be able to hear the bass properly to mix it properly.

2nd August 2003	#5
stakeoutstudios Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: London, UK Posts: 96	The only problem with multi-miking is you can run into phase issues unless you do a little trick. Work out which you prefer the top sound and which you prefer the bottom of... now create a virtual crossover on two separate tracks using two EQ's High pass on one mic, Low Pass on the other, crossing at the same frequencies. Combine the two, sometimes sounds great! Having said that sometimes you can be lucky with the whole phase issue and mix both together. Also experiment with miking the cab more or less distantly. Make sure the room's acoustically pretty dead (unless going for an effect) and if you haven't got a suspended mount for your mic, try putting the bass cab on a cushion... lol it works!

2nd August 2003	#6
jbuntz Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,716	A Little Labs IBP will help "tightness" with multiple sources.

2nd August 2003	#7
ozraves Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,124	I've said it before that I like the A Designs mic preamp DI for big bass sound. It's fairly clean but its big in the monitors and tight at the same time. One of the other Gear Slutz members helped design or test the A Designs REDDI (as in "red DI") and reports its the best bass DI ever (or some other sort of big statement like it). I'd tend to believe it given the nice bass image from their preamps. I don't know when the REDDI is coming out. But, I'd keep it in mind. Steve www.mojopie.com

4th August 2003	#16
mml Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: LA Posts: 250	If you're bouncing to disk, it's very difficult to get tight, big bass. Mix through a board to tape. It makes a huge difference. I just did this for the first time and not only is the midrange more present, but the bass is so much less mushy it's ridiculous. Even try going to cassette if you don't have access to a reel to reel machine. You might be surprised. 1/4" two tracks are very affordable now. And get some monitors so that you can really hear what's going on. None of those monitors you mentioned have a very true low-end response. Sell them all off and get one good pair if possible. I agree with the opinion that there's some sub-synth processing going on in some of the Sublime stuff. He does get a great sound! Trust me on analog. You'll never go back. Oh, and I wouldn't use the RNC for bass. It just doesn't excel in that application. You could also try a Sans Amp Classic to augment the DI sound. I got mine used for $100 and it's excellent for bass, Drums, vocals, accoustic...just not guitar! Just ask Mr. Blake.

5th August 2003	#17
Zep Dude Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,019	I'll go along with the analog tape suggestions here. Even if you can't go to tape, a beefy outboard EQ and a good compressor (not overdone) will give you what you'll NEVER get with plugins. I'm constantly reminded of that. I was just trying to get some real bottom out of a zurdo (big brazilian drum). Tracked it with a Mastering Lab Pre into a DB tech converter. Tried the Waves C4, Linear MB, Sony and a few others -even an L1. Finally thought I was making headway, but then I put it through my ouboard Fatso with compression -not even a comparison. All those plugins were a joke compared to the sound of the Fatso with compression. Interestingly, I also ran it through a Massive Passive but found that I was able to get the EQ I wanted from the Sony, Linear Multiband and Waves Ren EQ. I took a good amount of time setting each of them up because I was curious how the plugin EQ's measured up. Very impressive. The EQ plugins are really getting good (although I think the Pultec might still edge any of them out for low end), but the compressors are still very anemic compared to good outboard analog. __________________ Angelo Montrone Majestic Music Factory: Studio / Label Majestic Music Mastering Twitter: @MajesticMusicNY Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY

5th August 2003	#18
NathanEldred Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: West Coast Central Florida Posts: 7,130	The DI in the Great River NV is tight as it gets. If you want something a little 'softer' try a Groove Tubes DITTO. __________________ Nathan Eldred Visit Atlas Pro Audio USA Distributor for Buzz Audio Atlas Recording Studios, Inc.

6th August 2003	#19
jjaacc1 Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: New York Posts: 34 Thread Starter	DI in the MP-2nv I have tracked bass through the Hi-z Input of the MP-2NV and its ALL midrange. I wasnt getting any big bottom at all.

6th August 2003	#20
DirkB Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,703	For me, A lot of the tightness in the low-end is kick-bass interaction. For example: kick peaking at 63Hz, lot's of cut at 250-300, little roll-of or shelf to roll of 3-6db below 63Hz. This gives room for the weight in the bass which I find lays in the 125-500 range. A little roll of also starting at 50Hz and usually I'm getting in the ballpark. Just tight bassguitar? I couldn't say, has to agree with the kick. Greetings, Dirk __________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews

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