Metallica: Black Album - Phase Cancellation is Good?

[Almost Human]

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

[Gomez]

Originally Posted by Almost Human

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

No wonder why the Black Album is the longest drum solo I've ever heard thumbsup

[Eric Greedy]

Originally Posted by Almost Human

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

yeah it's nice of james to take the credit For Bob's and Randy Staubs work there.

When multi micing gtr cabs, sometimes choosing a mic placement and balance with one or more in reverse polarity relative to each other does act like EQ in that the cancellation will be a result of the distance between the mics from each other and the source, frequency curve of the mics, angle of incidence, etc. This all adds up to allow one to sculpt the sound. The more out of phase (rather than more in-phase) will tend to do things like scoop the mids. To get a bigger bottom and leave room for other things in the track, etc.

An analog EQ works (basically) by phase shift too.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Almost Human

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

Lol...sounds like a guitarist trying to impress but failing on the basics.
I call bullshit.

[AdamNewman]

If it feels good, do it. =)

flipping things out of phase can sound cool. When people talk about checking phase and making sure that things are in phase is to make sure you have not inadvertently introduced a phase relationship problem.

There is nothing wrong with sounds that are out of phase per se, but if you are not planning on it, or are unaware of it, then it can cause problems.

For instance, you wouldn't want to have a guitar on the left out of phase with a guitar on the right. When you go mono, the signal would most likely be cancelled significantly.

Now, if you are blending 2 mic signals together (say on a distorted guitar) and the summed signal sounds good to you when you flip one out of phase, then that shouldn’t be a problem.

Cheers.

[jbuntz]

The polarity is probably the same, the delays cause comb filtering which at times can sound cool if it's calculated, horrible if it's not. Think about it, if a mic is a foot back, that means there's about 1ms delay which = 1.5 khz cancels. The 8 mic things is probably a great idea when you've got a million dollar budget for the album, probably not so much when trying to get a guitar sound quickly.

Originally Posted by Almost Human

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

[whitepapagold]

[QUOTE=Eric Greedy]yeah it's nice of james to take the credit For Bob's and Randy Staubs work there.QUOTE]

Funny how James is implying he had anything to do with micing. I know most of the time Im tracking, the artist tells me what mics to use where ..... And those who do, 99% of the time, have absolutely NO IDEA what the hell they're talking about! Plus I doubt Metallicas production team knows what they are doing and thank god they can ask James for engineering techniques... thumbsup

[Almost Human]

As if Bob Rock and Randy Staub have any clue how to place a mic...bah...

But seriously, I do recall James saying in another interview that they had started with even more mics, up to 16-17 and whittled it down to a usable number. I can't even imagine trying to find a place to stick 16 mics around a couple guitar cabs. Whatever they did, they sure did it right. "Sad But True" has to be one of the heaviest guitar sounds I've ever heard.

[MAProTulz]

And it's probably just a 57 :P

[Gomez]

Originally Posted by MAProTulz

And it's probably just a 57 :P

Quite likely!

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Almost Human

As if Bob Rock and Randy Staub have any clue how to place a mic...bah...

But seriously, I do recall James saying in another interview that they had started with even more mics, up to 16-17 and whittled it down to a usable number. I can't even imagine trying to find a place to stick 16 mics around a couple guitar cabs. Whatever they did, they sure did it right. "Sad But True" has to be one of the heaviest guitar sounds I've ever heard.

You mean you can't get that tone with a POD?
But they have a Metallica preset- surely it is the same thing.

[Gomez]

Originally Posted by richmondjames

You mean you can't get that tone with a POD?
But they have a Metallica preset- surely it is the same thing.

LOL!

[Nigel Jopson]

Originally Posted by jbuntz

The 8 mic things is probably a great idea when you've got a million dollar budget for the album, probably not so much when trying to get a guitar sound quickly.

The mics don't have to be specially set up, or even pointing at the amp. Maybe there are 10 mics on a drum kit in the same room as the amp, why not open a few up and try to mix them in?
Why is only 1 mic good? Do you go to a gig, block one ear and kneel in front of the guitarist's amp, placing your other ear in front of the loudspeaker?

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by Nigel Jopson

Do you go to a gig, block one ear and kneel in front of the guitarist's amp, placing your other ear in front of the loudspeaker?

Only Metallica gigs.

[theother]

Originally Posted by Almost Human

I read this statement from James Hetfield in regards to the guitars on the Black Album:

"I use a lot of mics...up to 8. I use them to phase cancel each other, to control the sound like with an EQ but instead of an EQ. I'm using Mesa Boogie amps, with an ADA MP-1 preamp, but Boogie Simul-Class II is the main part of the sound. Cabs: Boogie for clean, cutting stuff, Marshalls with 30W Celestion Vintage 30s for warmth." - Guitar Player, September 1991.

He mentioned that he uses mics to phase cancel each other to shape the sound like an EQ. But, I've always viewed phase cancellation as a bad thing. Does anyone have any insight into this, or how he and Bob Rock would have acheived something like this? Thanks! thumbsup

You seem to confuse this with phase cancellation on stereo signals, where the right side cancels out with the left side and is mostly not wanted

But sometimes when you use two different microphones or different mic locations on a mono source, by reversing the phase you can get rid of unwanted frequencies that cancel each other out.

You use the phase cancellation as sort of sound-shaping tool.

This is a widely used technique especially on guitars. You flip the phase of one mic and sees what gets you closer to the sound you are looking for.

[Farview]

I used to do this all the time. To get a nasally Marshall tone, take 2 sm57's. Point one straight into the speaker and stick the other one right next to it at a 45 degree angle. Flip the polarity of one of them and mix to taste.
This will give you that 'stoner rock' Marshall sound. Think about the band Trouble.

[Paul David]

I did this on a nylon string track tonight. It's a hip hop beat with a latin feel. I placed a TLM 193 about 8" out near the bridge and a Phantom c about 8" out near the 12th fret. I first got a decent sound in mono then I put it in stereo and refined it... I was looking for nice width and dimension with minimal high end loss. Then I put it back in mono just to see what mono compatibillity was like... It was good enough for the few people who listen in mono so I hit the red button.

Whatever sounds good right?

P.S. The black album was my favorite CD when I was 13 and even though I'm not into metal anymore, in some ways it still influences the sounds I look for and progressions that I'm drawn to.

[jbuntz]

Originally Posted by Nigel Jopson

The mics don't have to be specially set up, or even pointing at the amp. Maybe there are 10 mics on a drum kit in the same room as the amp, why not open a few up and try to mix them in?
Why is only 1 mic good? Do you go to a gig, block one ear and kneel in front of the guitarist's amp, placing your other ear in front of the loudspeaker?

Keep shit simple when you are on the go. Putting up 8 mics at random will probably sound like a train wreck 9 out of 10 times. Comb filtering is very ugly most of the time.