Rigo was right?!? did null-test!!

[oneass]

Rigo claimed you can hear a difference when you turn off the track color option in Nuendo3. I actually just did the null-test to prove he was wrong, and whaddayaknow? He was right!!

I used a demo-recording to do this, so please don't go into the details of the recording, 'cause that's not the point. I muted the vocal tracks though.
Here are the tracks:
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/null.wav
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/grey.wav
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/color.wav

As you can hear, the result of the null-test is quite strange: you can still hear one of the softsynths and a few other noises.

And here is the original thread I'm talking about (it's locked):
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=57839

[Matt Grondin]

What does the null test involve exactly and how does it prove anything? Not being skeptical... this is a legitimate question... I must have missed that part of the thread.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by oneass

Rigo claimed you can hear a difference when you turn off the track color option in Nuendo3. I actually just did the null-test to prove he was wrong, and whaddayaknow? He was right!!

I used a demo-recording to do this, so please don't go into the details of the recording, 'cause that's not the point. I muted the vocal tracks though.
Here are the tracks:
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/null.wav
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/grey.wav
******//wannes.gonnissen.com/slutz/color.wav

As you can hear, the result of the null-test is quite strange: you can still hear one of the softsynths and a few other noises.

And here is the original thread I'm talking about (it's locked):
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=57839

You're missing one. You need to post:

A null w/ color and a null w/ grey.

Dobby,

The null test is you flip the phase of test item #1 and mix it w/ the un-flipped one and the result should absolutely zero or digital black because they'll cancel each other out if identical (but inverted in phase).

While I'm STILL not convinced Rigo isn't walters I think there's something happening here. I don't think color vs. no color could do this unless you're using a Mac IIe

I get movies all the time in Logic. If I use plugins things start sounding time/phase drifted. Different frequencies drifting in time and the phase getting whacky. EQ's/De-essers/Oxford/Waves/ProTool$/Logic different DAE memory allocations - still creeps up. Depending on the amount of compression in the movie and at certain parts of the movie multiplied by how many instances I have will yield different results. All of it a moving target.

NONE of it reproducible on a consistent basis! Three different G4's (Silver Mirror - ram maxed), G5's (ram maxed) Mix+, HD 44.1 48, and 88 worse at 96K! Some days after a fresh boot you don't hear it. The ol' cntrl/optn/p/r reboot on the OS 9.22 machines won't clear it.

As the movie loops (& potential memory holes develop) the problem slowly shows up. But I don't think it's ram frag. It's so damned subtle it's impossible to track. Changed all the clocks/termination/cables/sources of clocks etc... Same results. Mostly. Mostly.

I've talked to roundbadge about this once and the issue I believe is PROCESSOR LAG!

It's what drove me to GearSlutz & to start reacquiring the hardware gear again. I'm STILL tuning the room thinking THAT could have been it. Headphones - same result. Mostly.

Plug-ins suck. Mostly. Sorry. They do. I'll start another thread on this.

[cheeky b]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

I get movies all the time in Logic. If I use plugins things start sounding time/phase drifted. Different frequencies drifting in time and the phase getting whacky. EQ's/De-essers/Oxford/Waves/ProTool$/Logic different DAE memory allocations - still creeps up. Depending on the amount of compression in the movie and at certain parts of the movie multiplied by how many instances I have will yield different results. All of it a moving target.

NONE of it reproducible on a consistent basis! Three different G4's (Silver Mirror - ram maxed), G5's (ram maxed) Mix+, HD 44.1 48, and 88 worse at 96K! Some days after a fresh boot you don't hear it. The ol' cntrl/optn/p/r reboot on the OS 9.22 machines won't clear it.

As the movie loops (& potential memory holes develop) the problem slowly shows up. But I don't think it's ram frag. It's so damned subtle it's impossible to track. Changed all the clocks/termination/cables/sources of clocks etc... Same results. Mostly. Mostly.

I've talked to roundbadge about this once and the issue I believe is PROCESSOR LAG!

It's what drove me to GearSlutz & to start reacquiring the hardware gear again. I'm STILL tuning the room thinking THAT could have been it. Headphones - same result. Mostly.

Plug-ins suck. Mostly. Sorry. They do. I'll start another thread on this.

What format are your movies - I export all the Quicktime movies I receive as photo -JPEGs (using Qucktime pro) and sync to them. No problems at all with Logic. The only draw back is the file size can be pretty big but that's no real concern

[TLS]

I just tried the null test with sine wave tone files in Nuendo 3.2.1128

I did the "rainbow" look using both track as well as region color, and then grey - both track and region color.

The files nulled 100% with a phase reverse on one.

[CaliTone]

Another reason why Pro Tools is better. LMAO!!!!

Just kidding, move on!

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by cheeky b

What format are your movies - I export all the Quicktime movies I receive as photo -JPEGs (using Qucktime pro) and sync to them. No problems at all with Logic. The only draw back is the file size can be pretty big but that's no real concern

Mpeg1 ~ 4

Cinepak ~ Sorenson

DV

Slippery stuff.

BTW this isn't just with movies. It's just that THAT makes it worse. The plugs whack on their own.

You're sittin' there mixing away... ok, cool everything sounds fine then someone will pick it up - usually me. You tilt your head - there it is. At first I thought it was ear fatigue but it wasn't just me. The hardware doesn't do this.

Photo jpegs huh? What frame rate? Compression?

The movies that seem to keep all the hardware happy are the MPEG1's.

[borau]

For the null test to be valid you have to do it without any reverbs(which varies from pass to pass) or modulation fx(which also varies from time to time) AT ALL.

This also goes for soft synths etc.

(in pro tools this goes for automation too, btw. )


Now you can try the test.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

....(snip).....
Plug-ins suck. Mostly. Sorry. They do. ...(snip) ...

I agree.

[cheeky b]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

Photo jpegs huh? What frame rate? Compression?

The movies that seem to keep all the hardware happy are the MPEG1's.

Ah computers! MPEG1s are the ones I have the most trouble with.
I export them as quicktime movies, go to options then settings, compression type photo - JPEG. I don't bother changing any other settings usually as Logic seems to handle it all fine.

[oneass]

Originally Posted by borau

For the null test to be valid you have to do it without any reverbs(which varies from pass to pass) or modulation fx(which also varies from time to time) AT ALL.

This also goes for soft synths etc.

(in pro tools this goes for automation too, btw. )


Now you can try the test.

Makes sense - I'll try it tomorrow.

[deft_bonz]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

You're missing one. You need to post:

A null w/ color and a null w/ grey.

Dobby,

The null test is you flip the phase of test item #1 and mix it w/ the un-flipped one and the result should absolutely zero or digital black because they'll cancel each other out if identical (but inverted in phase).

While I'm STILL not convinced Rigo isn't walters I think there's something happening here. I don't think color vs. no color could do this unless you're using a Mac IIe

I get movies all the time in Logic. If I use plugins things start sounding time/phase drifted. Different frequencies drifting in time and the phase getting whacky. EQ's/De-essers/Oxford/Waves/ProTool$/Logic different DAE memory allocations - still creeps up. Depending on the amount of compression in the movie and at certain parts of the movie multiplied by how many instances I have will yield different results. All of it a moving target.

NONE of it reproducible on a consistent basis! Three different G4's (Silver Mirror - ram maxed), G5's (ram maxed) Mix+, HD 44.1 48, and 88 worse at 96K! Some days after a fresh boot you don't hear it. The ol' cntrl/optn/p/r reboot on the OS 9.22 machines won't clear it.

As the movie loops (& potential memory holes develop) the problem slowly shows up. But I don't think it's ram frag. It's so damned subtle it's impossible to track. Changed all the clocks/termination/cables/sources of clocks etc... Same results. Mostly. Mostly.

I've talked to roundbadge about this once and the issue I believe is PROCESSOR LAG!

It's what drove me to GearSlutz & to start reacquiring the hardware gear again. I'm STILL tuning the room thinking THAT could have been it. Headphones - same result. Mostly.

Plug-ins suck. Mostly. Sorry. They do. I'll start another thread on this.

Have you ever thought about that you might get a little bit dizzy after watching for a certain time the same video loop, thus you start to move your head slightly (without noticing it consciously) which can cause slight sound variations?

[deft_bonz]

Originally Posted by borau

For the null test to be valid you have to do it without any reverbs(which varies from pass to pass) or modulation fx(which also varies from time to time) AT ALL.

This also goes for soft synths etc.

(in pro tools this goes for automation too, btw. )

Now you can try the test.

It's even worse in Logic.

I always have to smile when people try to null softsynths. They don't understand that it is like nulling 2 analogue synths, even if they are the same brand. They are never the same. They might sound the same or similar, but their waveforms are never the same. That also goes for softsynths.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by borau

For the null test to be valid you have to do it without any reverbs(which varies from pass to pass) or modulation fx(which also varies from time to time) AT ALL.

This also goes for soft synths etc.

Thanks for clarifying that for him.

THIS is the way rumors get started. Someone does a test for one thing and doesn't realize that the indicting results they got have nothing at all to do with the thing they are testing.

Reverbs and modulation effects, though they wouldn't null, should be similar enough from pass to pass that you shouldn't notice a distinctly different audible outcome, regardless of whether they nulled.

[crypticglobe]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

Thanks for clarifying that for him.

THIS is the way rumors get started. Someone does a test for one thing and doesn't realize that the indicting results they got have nothing at all to do with the thing they are testing.

Reverbs and modulation effects, though they wouldn't null, should be similar enough from pass to pass that you shouldn't notice a distinctly different audible outcome, regardless of whether they nulled.

Exactly. Well said by a fellow Franklinite.

I did some test last night since I was doing some drum editing and using colors.

Everything nulls perfectly when exported with... and without colors.

This is the begininng of an urban legend and I for one say it's absolutely 100% wrong. Period.

[SiliconAudioLab]

I also believe changing colors effecting the tracks is a myth as I stated above. Posting my issue with plugs in this thread was s mistake.

So I’ve posted it in the High End Section here ---> ******//gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=58431

What I’m talking about is the instability of plugs under varying and heavy processor loads and phase shifting from say a lead vocal or in my case often the actors/dialog tracks when stemming them out.

I'm telling you that depending on your load the plugs processing shifts in phase at certain frequencies. Slowly over time the phase will roll (during playback or course). You would think Digide$ign had compensated for this using their multiple DSP chips on the cards. But my theory is once they get taxed they too drift in accuracy. I mean look, the DSP of eq is all about subtle delay in macro levels at certain frequencies.

Instanciate a bunch of plugs until your computer throws the warning that CPU or TDM is near maxed. Then pull in a movie and see if things don't change.

It’s a slippery devil and it’s not freakin’ VERTIGO!

Once I get a spare millisecond second I’ll do more null testing myself. We should all be fully aware of how free running LFO’s in soft sytnths are not locked. I’m not including any soft synths or reverbs when this happens.

Start with a main vocal track.

I suggest is to instanciate many plugs in that one channel. Start w/ a focusrite plug then maybe channel strip or a ren vox compressor add a de-esser and maybe a throw in C4 for kicks in the main vocal track AND the other tracks.

Now add more plugs to other channels until a warning is thrown. Those tracks don’t have to have audio but even better if they do. Add those audio tracks WITH the extra plugs processing away. Now open a QT movie and see if things don’t start to slip with a null test.

I’ll use dozens and dozens of instances WITH Altiverb! Fine - take Altiverb out of mix by bypassing it but leave it instanciated.

I further suspect that even without a movie the problem exists at such a subtle level that when we are slamming big mixes we miss it.

The other way you could do this is to solo the vocal in/out with all those extra plugs in then null with them all removed completely (un-instanciated) except the main ones in the vocal track which need to be muted. Yes I'm factoring in plug processor delay (usually 3~7 milliseconds).

[Kiwiburger]

Some soft synths are sample-accurate clones that can null - others aren't. Sampler players are usually capable of nulling.

For any null test, you should export then reimport the audio file - and then it becomes irrelevant. Any null tests that i've performed with Cubase SX have proven to me that the mix bus is 100% accurate - although i've never turned the track colors on.

I've never understood the people who have issues with mixing ITB. From what I can tell, it's the distortions and phase smearing and noisefloor dithering of external analog circuits that they prefer. Not accuracy.

[oneass]

Originally Posted by deft_bonz

I always have to smile when people try to null softsynths. They don't understand that it is like nulling 2 analogue synths, even if they are the same brand. They are never the same. They might sound the same or similar, but their waveforms are never the same. That also goes for softsynths.

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

We should all be fully aware of how free running LFO’s in soft sytnths are not locked.

Damn, I feel so stupid I hadn't thought of that...