Smaller ATC Experiences - Do You Have One?

[brendondp]

Hey all,

After taking my mixing skills as far as I think I can on my B&W's (bless them) it's come to my attention that no mids and an exaggerated bottom end do not a good mix make. (Duh!)

I've been using a variety of Dynaudio's that have some nice pros, and some very noticable cons - the melted chocolate bottom end obscuring all detail and note differentation being the most severe. And to be honest, I'd rather have midrange transparency than bass bloat any day of the week. (Stuffing the ports has proved insufficient).

So, ATC SCM10.2's or ATC T16's are on the short list.

I know, I know, the SCM10.2's "won't have enough bass"and the T16's "aren't transparent enough"...

But my budget doesn't (I say again, doesn't) stretch to the SCM20's. Or the 50's. Or the 100's. Ok?


Brad, if you're lurking I'd appreciate your thoughts, and any one else who may have 2 cents to throw into the mix. Geddit... mix??

And ADAMS, Genelec's, etc... not so keen. Sorry.

Cheers,

bdp

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by brendondp

Hey all,

After taking my mixing skills as far as I think I can on my B&W's (bless them) it's come to my attention that no mids and an exaggerated bottom end do not a good mix make. (Duh!)

No mids and an exaggerated bottomn?

Sounds like the problem is elsewhere if you ask me.

Former owner of SCM20's.

I've posted in the past about them.

All i can say is they are very clinical(not much give) and if you are not careful you will "over mix"which sounds like the problem you are having now.

[brendondp]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

No mids and an exaggerated bottomn?

Sounds like the problem is elsewhere if you ask me.

Okay, I'm being a little facetious. They're fine by domestic standards but they're a large ported design with a paper cone and they lack "translatability".

I used to own a pair of ProAc Studio 100's (which i believe De Chromium and Michael Brauer like) but they were bought on my student loan and I felt too guilty so sold them - something I still regret 10 years later. I thought they were fantastic but were discontinued at the time I bought the B&W's and used samples are rare. I still needed to use an amp with them and carting round amps suited to driving them was a pain in the ass.

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Former owner of SCM20's.

I've posted in the past about them.

All i can say is they are very clinical(not much give) and if you are not careful you will "over mix"which sounds like the problem you are having now.

Yeah, I did a search (hooray!) and all your comments have been very useful.

As far as "overmixing" is concerned - yeah I totally agree. I've had to work so hard getting the B&W's to make music whenever I listen on anyone else's monitors it's like "Damn, dude, what's with the big ego mix?" The Dynaudio's have been better, but I'm not loving the lower frequencies (mmmm... melted chocolate) and kinda everything sounds "nice" but that's not what I'm going for.

I wanna know what the music needs and doesn't need, and be able to discern that more easily rather than have to deal with the character of the speaker all the time and second guess all the time. I'm not adverse to working hard to get a mix to where it needs to be, but wasting either mine or the artist's time isn't a great use of resources either.

Sure, every speaker has a "character" but from all reports (and posts here) "translatability" seems to be the ATC catch-phrase. I've got a chance to listen to some T16's later this week at a studio here in town, but as I said in my previous post I'm happy to live without the lower octaves if I get a gain in transparency in the mids (something that both the B&W's and Dynaudio's don't give me).

Thanks Thrill for your comments (and previous posts). Anyone else with a small ATC experience?

Cheers again,

bdp

P.S. For what it's worth, the artist I'm working with at the moment is a P.J. Harvey/Cat Power/Sleater Kinney singer-songwriter so on this project it's been acoustic guitar and strings with cranked Tele's and drums loops through amps. So a bit of everything, in case you've got a "What type of music are you doing?" question in mind.

[brendondp]

So I sent Brad Lunde a PM asking him about his thoughts.

He sent me one back, explaining the pros and cons of smaller ATC's.

So?

Well, I won't be buying them off Brad Lunde, I'll be buying them from the distributor here, and I told him so.

Brad still answered all my questions (with a reply received within one day) and made it lengthy and friendly at that.

THAT, my fellow slutz, is called "goodwill".

From my experiences thus far, I'd say Brad has it in spades.

Cheers,

bdp

P.S. He told me to get the 20's. My bank account is telling me to ignore him.

[burp182]

Pay attention to him. Save up and get the 20s. He has good reasons. I agree with him. I owned 20s and have 100s now. The most relaxed mixing experience you can imagine. The passives will be fine, but get a GOOD AMP. All flaws will be revealed. The key is to simply mix the music, not the speaker. Make sure the room has no big issues, turn the volume down so whatever problems the room does have are minimized, do the real "Nearfield Monitoring" setup as defined by Ed Long and enjoy life.

[vandi]

Rubo is selling some ATC SCM 20's in the classifieds section for $1800 shipped. That's a heck of a deal:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...&highlight=ATC

I use SCM 12's at home myself (thanks Brad) and I think they're great. You might try looking on audiogon.com for some used SCM 12's. They're very affordable. Of course, I'm assuming you don't mind running passive monitors.

best of luck,
vandi

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by brendondp

He told me to get the 20's. My bank account is telling me to ignore him.

I was distributing ATC when Brad was still in diapers, and I say - get the 20s. They are worth the extra money, and if you're going to go with a pedigree brand like ATC, go for the best bang for the buck.

I had the 20's in my home studio and my home stereo, and they were easily the best speakers in their class - hell, ANY class. BTW they look gorgeous in Piano Black.

I was kidding about Brad - he wasn't in diapers, it was 1990. But I think I saw him wearing a bib at the "$9.99 All You Can Eat Alaskan King Crab and a pitcher of beer" night at the old Paddlewheel Hotel and Casino in Vegas...

[brendondp]

Cool. Thanks for your posts guys.

The support for the 20's is near unanimous.

Truth be told I'm trying to think of how I can get away with selling crack to schoolkids here, especially given the price difference between the 10's and the 20's.

Did I mention I have a mortagage? Desperately need a Shadow Hills GAMA? A Mag Mic? A custom-built titanium 29" single-speed mountain bike? Have a (very understanding) wife??

The T16's are off the list, but the 10's are hanging in there.

Right then, off to the lab to cook up my stash.

Cheers to you,

bdp

P.S. Okay, the crack selling is a joke. I promise.

[max cooper]

If you go the passive route, you can check places like Audiogon for a pair of second-hand 20's.

I know the 10's and they're good speakers. But get the 20's.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by GilWave

I was distributing ATC when Brad was still in diapers, and I say - get the 20s. <SNIP>

I was kidding about Brad - he wasn't in diapers, it was 1990. But I think I saw him wearing a bib at the "$9.99 All You Can Eat Alaskan King Crab and a pitcher of beer" night at the old Paddlewheel Hotel and Casino in Vegas...

Gil! How dare you, to twist everything so badly! It was the Rio!


Brad

[Brad Lunde]

On speakers I think its REALLY tough to come up with generalizations. There are so many factors, rooms, taste, past experience, other system flaws, etc. There is no "IT WILL WORK ALL THE TIME". I know folks in studios that are smart, do good work and use everything under the sun. I listened to Mark Needham mix Killers on LSR28's and Fleetwood Mac-sat behind the console! There it was right in front of me and I swear I dont know how he did it, how he made sense of it. Those speakers power compress so badly it was ALL a blurr to me-yet those mixes sound good. Chris Lord Alge, I've sat behind his console, listened to his mixes, can't tell you how he does it- so many hits-on NS10M's!

I know most clients that have switched to ATC 20 ASL (the SL thing is real important, not the same as the 20A's) came back to me in a few months saying their first mix was real tough but when they finally handed it off to mastering its was their best work. I've spoken to those same mastering guys to know they aren't kidding. That makes me feel like ATC is on to something that works.
Brad

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Brad Lunde

I know most clients that have switched to ATC 20 ASL (the SL thing is real important, not the same as the 20A's) came back to me in a few months saying their first mix was real tough but when they finally handed it off to mastering its was their best wor

I agree with this description, and I'll add that since getting 20's I've been more motivated to get the sounds great in tracking.

[GilWave]

Originally Posted by Brad Lunde

Gil! How dare you, to twist everything so badly! It was the Rio!

LOL!! My bad Brad.

[copperx]

Which B&Ws were you mixing with?

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Former owner of SCM20's.

what do you have now, thrill?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

what do you have now, thrill?

NS10's,DMT 10 II's and sub,Dunlavy SM1's,soffit mount Bigs,Mac powered monitors and one auratone.

This year hopefully i will look into the Barefoot Minimain.

[klaukholm]

I think it would be helpful if you were specific about which B&W you are using as well as which amp/amps and preamp/controller. Are you biwiring or biamping?
B&W makes anything from consumer grade to the 801.
The bigger speakers of the 800 series are quite linear.

kjetil

[brendondp]

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions.

And having taken it all on board I've decided to ignore you all completely and... (drum roll, please) get the SCM10.2's.

Don't hate me... it's just that there are a few other factors that needed consideration other than pure sound quality/performance.

Budget was one - the 20's are just out of my price range right now, and although I could have gone the extra to get them, as I said above there are some other things on the short list for purchase this year.

I'm also in the middle of an album and finding that the overall quality of what we're tracking and now mixing is beginning to suffer. I've had to re-record a few things finding that the sound we thought we got was not actually the sound we wanted. But better to get it right at the mic than fix in the mix. I feel confident there'll be less re-tracking now that I'll be better able to hear whether we've got it or not. I've also got another project starting at the end of the month, so I kinda need something now.

I don't work in a commercial facility. I work from home and whatever spaces the band/artist can afford. Space is often at a premium, and in those cases, less bass in an untreated room is better than too much.

I had considered going passive, but there are few amps I think really deserve to power the ATC's sufficiently that don't cost the price of a small car. The ProAc's I had were similar in being so current-hungry. And quality current costs money. Not to mention being bloody heavy and hot.

So, anyway, again I appreciate all your posts. The SCM10.2's are due to arrive tomorrow so I'll have the weekend with them and let you know how I get on.

At the very least, I get to join the ATC Club, and brag about it at parties. (Ha!)

Cheers again,

bdp

[u b k]

Originally Posted by burp182

The key is to simply mix the music, not the speaker. Make sure the room has no big issues, turn the volume down so whatever problems the room does have are minimized, do the real "Nearfield Monitoring" setup as defined by Ed Long and enjoy life.

good advice re: mixing on the atc's. first instinct is best with those boxes; i had to fight to keep myself from doing tricks to overcome their unexciting (imo) sound.

care to elaborate on ed long's setup? google just turns up articles which make a one-line reference to him.

thanks!


gregoire
del ubik

[brendondp]

Okay, so I got three hours worth of mixing on the ACT SCM10.2's last night and this is what my brain tells me after that lenght of time.

"Understated."

I just can't think of a better word right now than that one right there. Maybe:

"Matter of fact."

You know how you read stuff about monitors (often on this very forum) where people wax endlessly about "truth of timbre" or "accuracy" or "hyper-detailed" or "extended" or "airy" or "revealing" or "flat" or "new-buzz-word-of-the-month"...

Well the ATC's are none of those things.

Oh, sure, there are plenty of words to describe them - and god knows people try.

But none of those buzzwords really seem to matter. And the reason I say this (after three hours, remember) is that my experience renders any hyperbole redundant. Here's what happened:

I have to have four songs, mixed on the album I'm working on for a sampler that'll be sent overseas, finished this week.

I threw up the mix and here's what I heard... exactly what I recorded and mixed. (Gasp!) Nothing more, nothing less. Simply what was on the hard-disk. Not "more air" or "details I'd never heard before" or "greater soundstage depth" - simply and only what what was there in proportion to what the faders and processing had done.

I then put Bjork's "Pagan Poetry" on the PT session as a comparison track and what I heard was again, exactly what was on the recording. Exactly (as far as I can tell) in proportion to what had been recorded and mixed.

"Sober" is not a word you hear a lot in audio circles, and certainly not when discussing slutty pieces of gear, but there's a sobriety (whoa, careful with that hyperbole, Eugene) about the ATC's that made it so much easier to hear what I had done, and hear what needed to be done, and most impotantly, what needed to be undone in order to make the mix work. I've heard the Bjork track tonnes of times, and the ATC's told me nothing more than what I had heard before, except with far more sobriety. My mixes sounded just like I had mixed them - neither better or worse - but with a sobriety that allowed me to get on with the job at hand.

Genius.

And when I think of all the time (and money) spent on "the best - most accurate, most detailed, most transparent, most ruler-flat - monitors money can buy", and the time wasted on searching for same-said "new best thing", today I breathed a sigh of relief that I may be off the monitor bandwagon for a very long time.

Talk up all the other choices that are out there - go ahead. Slam the ATC's for whatever you'd like. I won't be joining in the debate.

Because as much fun as it is to argue and debate and swap semantics, I may have found a piece of gear - not the most expensive, not the most exotic - that simply allows me to stop second-guessing the choices I've made and tells me whether it works or doesn't.

There's nothing else I want from a pair of near-fields.

And I'd rather spend time working than f***ing around on a website debating why X is superior to Y.

Thankyou Billy Goodman. And thanks to you who've contributed to this thread. I'm off to keep mixing. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers to you all,

bdp

P.S. thrill and ubik, you guys are right. Exciting may be great in the short term, but can wear thin pretty easily. No need for pyrotechnics here - only what the track calls for. Cheers.

[brendondp]

So is mixing really supposed to be this easy?

I've sweated blood over one track in particular that I knew I had tracked right, but could never get it to "come alive". I mixed and remixed, never feeling that I was getting what we had got in the performance.

So I bring up the faders on Saturday, and it all becomes so obvious.

A little bit of 1176 on the snare, bring it up a couple of dB, and... viola we have a song!

Okay so there was some other tweaking here and there, but through the ATC's it was just so starkly clear that that was what was needed - and again, so obvious when it was too much.

My wife even commented appreciably on the mix, which considering how many times she's been subjected to it in all its mis-mixed shame, must mean we're finally doing something right. How is it that after spending several hours of surgically EQing one track of reverb on a guitar, a woman can walk into the room, say "the vocal needs to be louder", and all of a sudden the result you've been trying to achieve by every other method gets done by the one thing you never thought of trying? How do women do that?

Actually, the ATC's are like that. They tell you in the most obvious way what needs to happen, and when you hear it like that all the second-guessing disappears and you just do what needs to be done.

Best gear purchase of the year?

Best damn gear purchase in the last five.

Cheers,

bdp

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by brendondp

So is mixing really supposed to be this easy?

I've sweated blood over one track in particular that I knew I had tracked right, but could never get it to "come alive". I mixed and remixed, never feeling that I was getting what we had got in the performance.

So I bring up the faders on Saturday, and it all becomes so obvious.

A little bit of 1176 on the snare, bring it up a couple of dB, and... viola we have a song!

Okay so there was some other tweaking here and there, but through the ATC's it was just so starkly clear that that was what was needed - and again, so obvious when it was too much.

My wife even commented appreciably on the mix, which considering how many times she's been subjected to it in all its mis-mixed shame, must mean we're finally doing something right. How is it that after spending several hours of surgically EQing one track of reverb on a guitar, a woman can walk into the room, say "the vocal needs to be louder", and all of a sudden the result you've been trying to achieve by every other method gets done by the one thing you never thought of trying? How do women do that?

Actually, the ATC's are like that. They tell you in the most obvious way what needs to happen, and when you hear it like that all the second-guessing disappears and you just do what needs to be done.

Best gear purchase of the year?

Best damn gear purchase in the last five.

Cheers,

bdp

hi,

looks like you found the tool you was searching for. its great when something works for you, and at the same time work with it.

just out of interest, why did you dismiss the ATC T16's?

In the future, i am looking to try out a smaller nearfeild pair of ATC's, either the SCM10 or T16. The SCM 20's are not in my price range.

best of luck with your new Atc's.

[brendondp]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

hi,

looks like you found the tool you was searching for. its great when something works for you, and at the same time work with it.

just out of interest, why did you dismiss the ATC T16's?

In the future, i am looking to try out a smaller nearfeild pair of ATC's, either the SCM10 or T16. The SCM 20's are not in my price range.

best of luck with your new Atc's.

Hey,

To be honest I never went and heard the T16's, so my dismissal was based on comments and experiences from the distributor here (in NZ), Brad Lunde and other users.

Not because the T16's are a "bad" product, simply because low end extension isn't as important to me as mid range transparency. From what I've been told, the T16's give up a little transparency in the mids in order to create greater low frequency extension.

Again - I have never heard the T16's. And, in fact, I had never heard the SCM10's either before purchasing them.

What I did do was talk to people I trusted and rely on the service of the distributor for my choices. Which, as you can tell from my posts, has meant I'm both extremely satisfied with my decision and very confident in the advice I got from Brad and the distributor here.

I have to say, my own experiences of having too much bass (especially in problematic rooms) lead me away from monitors that were likely to overload my room (it's small). The Dynaudio's I was mixing on before had a lot (too much) extension, and were a little too "chocolately" for both my taste and my room.

The SCM10's have a 5" mid/bass driver in a sealed enclosure, therefore the low end (subjectively speaking) is lot tighter and faster (and more informative) than what I was getting on the Dyn's - ported enclosure, larger driver, and subjectively fuller but less informative.

And as you say in your post I needed something that worked for me. The ATC SCM10.2's do.

And, I couldn't justify the extra required to go for the 20's, as much as I would have liked to. And, hey, my mixes are much better anyway, so there's no regrets at all.

And, I have some money left to put towards a Shadow Hills GAMA.

I don't usually spend money on gear I've never heard before (the Little Labs IBP was the last piece I got without hearing - and again, no regrets) but being in NZ makes it kinda tough to get to hear anything. I chose to put some trust in some people who I percieved told it like it was - even given their agenda. (Brad of course was fully aware he would not benefit in anyway from my purchase).

And, at the very least I can say I'm happy I chose to trust Brad, the distributor here, and the 'slutz who posted. YMMV.

Cheers to you,

bdp

[brendondp]

So after a couple of weeks, here's the state of the nation...

These are by far the best monitors I've ever used.

As some of the others above have already mentioned, the ATC's allow you -encourage you, even - to mix on instinct. Over-thinking or "over-mixing": it is possible, but the results (for me, in my room, on this project) are much prefered when just playing the music that's there and - as ubik says - mixing the music, rather than mixing the mix.

Clever tricks are all good and fun, but the ATC's make it explicitly clear when it's simply a trick, rather than an enhancement to the music.

I bought a little Tivoli rip-off home the other day. I worked on a mix until it sounded most like a song (rather than a collection of instruments and voices) and played it back on the little radio.

Viola!

Mix done. Move on. Grab a bite to eat. Talk to another human being. Watch some Family Guy.

No re-mixing, re-EQing, tweaking or fixing needed.

The ATC's let you know when you've got music, and when you haven't.

Bravo.

Cheers,

bdp

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by brendondp

So after a couple of weeks, here's the state of the nation...

<SNIP>


No re-mixing, re-EQing, tweaking or fixing needed.

The ATC's let you know when you've got music, and when you haven't.

bdp

I think this more than anything describes what makes ATC worth the money.
Brad