How to get wider background vocals?

[Lindell]

What do you guys use for trix to get the background vocals wider than stereo....?
I want to get the BV to be wider than they actually are. I have a Harrison Series 10B console that are pretty wide, but I want more!
I normally assign 16 channels of BV on the desk, then bus ém to a compressor and/or a de-esser.
I want to bend the physical laws here a bit..... I´ve tried stuff like Edison, but that does´nt help very much. Is there any other boxes that does what I want?

/L

[zarathoustra]

there are so many things to try.. even without any outboard processing.
i play with phases (working on a daw helps for that). as an example, to place in the stereo field a sound, i duplicate it, phase reverse it, then play with the pan pot, eq and level of the two tracks so that my sound (the sum of the 2) comes from where i want.
or i use a roland rss-10 to get the sound outside the monitors with just a button push.
or if you have a stereo signal, you can MS it, tweak the middle and the side channel, then de-matrix it. you could also side-chained-compress the mid channel by the lead vox.
i dont think there are limited ways to do it. i always try something new and it almost always works.
btw, i don't care about mono compatibility since i stopped mixing radio hits wannabes.

[cymatics]

My fave for 'faux stereo' is the IBP. Copy/mult the track(s) and insert the IBP on one channel. Sweep the phase while periodically summing to mono to make sure it doesn't completely disappear. There's always a sweetspot that yields a nice wide stereo image while maintaining a high degree of mono compatability.

- jon

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Lindell
What do you guys use for trix to get the background vocals wider than stereo....?
I want to get the BV to be wider than they actually are. I have a Harrison Series 10B console that are pretty wide, but I want more!
I normally assign 16 channels of BV on the desk, then bus ém to a compressor and/or a de-esser.
I want to bend the physical laws here a bit..... I´ve tried stuff like Edison, but that does´nt help very much. Is there any other boxes that does what I want?

/L

The Edison works better for perc stuff and pads. The Desper is better for low freq material. The Neve 33608 works great on vocals and drums. The RSS10 is great on effects.

The secret for backvocals outside the stereo field, is careful placement of the instruments inside and leaving the outsides for those dramatic times(for example chorus backgrounds). This is where some of the Spatializers(especially the Desper unit) comes in handy. You can rotate instruments and put them in places you normally wouldn't with regular pan pots.

There are all kinds of subtle effect tricks and chains to do for backgrounds.

By the way a unit that doesn't get mentioned much which works great at spreading things out is the old ADR Panscan. I love it on "peaky digital backgrounds choruses"in bypass or with the effect in. It tends to smooth them and spread them out.

On the Harrison thing, this is where mixing on the 9000J actually wins hands down. It is one of the widest sounding consoles around(I think it imparts an EQ curve on the mix buss). Also mixing to digital tends not to spread things out as much(even at 96K). I still like mixing to analog when "wideness"is crucial.

Just an opinion.

[Albert]

If I may also add the TC electronic 1210 to the other suggestions made here.

The suggeston of the Roland RSS10 is interesting, I wasn't aware that it was used that much. Thanks for the info.

[littledog]

The TC finalizer also lets you screw around with the stereo spread.

[e-cue]

Desper Spaitalizer CE, Spatializer Retro, The Edison you mentioned, The Modulizer, The Ulrafex, The Vitializer, and the 1210 are my usually suspects. I almost always send to them via a stereo bus. The 1210 is noisey, which I don't mind on everything, but on pop music, I usually toss an expander on the back end. I'm suprised you didn't like the Edison. It stands tall next to my $5,000 spatializer unit, at least for width. If you didn't like it, I suggest the Spatializer Retro (I see them anywhere from $300 to $800). As always, check, recheck, and triple check in mono.

[stealthbalance]

if you are in pro tools, you may want to try DUY wide. it is a
really nice plug-in. maybe bring the bv's hard left and right and
add in a slightly delayed duplicate track of the same and gun wide to taste.
or just try on the original subgroup with no mult.
s

[Jay Kahrs]

Sometimes I'll run just the effects return though a Vitalizer. I'll pick a stereo 'verb or delay and 'verb and bring those back through the SPL and into the console. There was one recent project where I did that with the main 'verb because the band wanted a wider image then I could get out of the console.

Speaking of which, why are some consoles wider then others? I mean, if the pan pots go all the way right & left on every board why aren't they all the same? Granted I know some of the reasons, but is there anything that can be done about it without resorting to things like the Edison and Vitalizer?

[faeflora]

Thrill's comment about narrower placement of other tracks and wider placement for choruses etc is fabulously effective. I've never heard anyone give that tip before and it's a fantastic and vital technique. Bravo! Tip of the year!


---
Phasing tricks can be phun. That IBP post is a good idea also. I don't have an IBP so I often mess around with light phasers or flangers. Slight 1-100 (whatever sounds right) delays also work sometimes. Exciters, chorusifiers in small amounts also help. Most often though, EQ helps for wideness. Thinner sounds seem to be more spacious generally. If you need a full tone, then mix thinner sounds with a few heftier tracks. Lastly, Thrill's technique works best and will make things much easier to get sounding right. Wide is relative anyways- if you've got a big mix already with stuff flying all over the place you'll have to smash widosity and tons of tricks onto your listener to make them notice a difference.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Lindell
I normally assign 16 channels of BV on the desk, then bus ém to a compressor and/or a de-esser.

The other thing i forgot to mention is that compressing the backgrounds can sometimes kill its depth.

I normally only compress backgrounds as an effect(an EQ) and most often than not I prefer to leave them uncompressed and just ride the faders.

Also I tend not pan them hard left and right. I leave the extremes for special cases.

[Renie]

Originally posted by faeflora
Thrill's comment about narrower placement of other tracks and wider placement for choruses etc is fabulously effective. I've never heard anyone give that tip before and it's a fantastic and vital technique. Bravo! Tip of the year!

Faeflora

You might want to check out the David Pensado article on the digidesign website. I can't provide a direct link but if you tap "Pro Techniques from David Pensado" into the search facility and scroll down to

"Pro Technique 2 —
The three sacred spots: Making mixes sound wider."

It's got some interesting related information, about mixes and width generally.

[cymatics]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Speaking of which, why are some consoles wider then others? I mean, if the pan pots go all the way right & left on every board why aren't they all the same? Granted I know some of the reasons, but is there anything that can be done about it without resorting to things like the Edison and Vitalizer?

I'd be curious to hear a technical expalnation of this as well. I've been pondering this lately.

Here's my stab in the dark...

It has to do with cross talk at the mix bus. If there is bleed between the L & R channels on the 2 bus, then the out of phase information will cancel in proportion to the amplitude of the cross talk. A master section with immeasurably low cross talk will sound really wide.



- jon

[Ted]

What about the Bedini BASE, Roland Dimmensiom D, or Bob Katz's box?

Thanks,
Ted.

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Ted
What about the Bedini BASE, Roland Dimmensiom D, or Bob Katz's box?

Thanks,
Ted.

The Dimension D is great for giving width to bass tracks, but it doesn't really give you depth outside the speaker image. It's hit or miss on BG vocals. Usually works on female vocals better than male with all 4 pushed in. On male bg's I've had better results with 1 & 3 pushed in.

[Curve Dominant]

Ya gotta love that Dave Pensado, man. The Kung Fu master.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Ted
What about the Bedini BASE, Roland Dimmensiom D, or Bob Katz's box?

Thanks,
Ted.

Hey Ted.

BK's box doesn't necessarily make it wider(it does some), but it can bring out the detail in mixes without resorting to EQ. At times it can be subtle, other times it can be very dramatic.

[Dan-O]

Ya gotta love that Dave Pensado, man. The Kung Fu master.

Totally!

[Ted]

Thanks guys,


Hey Thrill,
Is the BASE worth having?


Thanks,
Ted.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Ted
Thanks guys,


Hey Thrill,
Is the BASE worth having?


Thanks,
Ted.

Hi Ted,

I've been meaning to check it out.

I've only heard incredible things about it. Its definitely not cheap($6K i think). But it seems to do the job the best out of all the processors. It works great I heard on the mix(also its supposed to be incredible on 5.1 material).

But you know me, until I try something i don't really like to comment on it too much.

[Ted]

Thanks Thrill,

I can't believe I finally asked you about something you don't own or haven't tried! I may pick one up and I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Ted.

[Robotnik]

Bussing out BVox to a 670 helps.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Ted
Thanks Thrill,

I can't believe I finally asked you about something you don't own or haven't tried! I may pick one up and I'll let you know.

Thanks,
Ted.

Hi Ted,

Yeah believe it or not I haven't tried everything!!!

And over the years I've scaled my stuff down to the essentials.

I got rid of practically every preamp(except the units that have EQ's on them) and mics that I had.

Basically its just comps,EQs and tons of effects.

I love effects!!!

I am going to look around town and see if someone has one to try it(I am sure there must be a mastering place with one somewhere).

[Nutmeg II.]

Originally posted by stealthbalance
if you are in pro tools, you may want to try DUY wide. it is a
really nice plug-in. maybe bring the bv's hard left and right and
add in a slightly delayed duplicate track of the same and gun wide to taste.
or just try on the original subgroup with no mult.
s

-I use a 25-32msec delay to the opposite side of the signal.
Adds spatial width and could push the signal a bit to the back when switched to mono (low pass the delay could do a little something here too).
-A lexicon delay with pitch shift option.
-Ultra Harmoniser (there is a preset that does a delay-pitche shift-enhancer thing)
-edison on fx returns is nice for me too!