Rap Vocals

[jjaacc1]

Hey, I have been tracking with Rap clients lately, and i Have been getting good sounds, but not exactly as "commercial" as I want it.
I have been using a U195 into a Great River MP-2NV, with a speck eq and the RNC on the way in. Does anyone have any suggestions weather it be tracking or post production to make the vocals more "commercial" sounding, besides doubling.

Thanks alot


John

[Exmun]

1. What's your recording medium (hard disk--which program, digital tape, analog????)?

2. What monitors do you have?
3. Are you using high quality cabling?
4. What are your approximate settings on the RNC and the Speck EQ?

[jjaacc1]

Mackie monitors,
RNC=fast attack, mid release, 4:1, with usually 2 db of reduction, and upto 6 or 8 on really loud parts.
On the Speck, I have messed aroudn with alot of settings to fit different rappers. I am always pushing the gain on the speck almost all the way to get more color. Im pretty happy with the raw sound, but I just want to know what techniques and/or effects to use to make it more commercial.

[jjaacc1]

Also, I am using an RME-ADIAE 8 channel ad/da with good proco or mogami cable.

[Curve Dominant]

If you can find a dbx 160X (I got mine used for $100), grab it, and use it for hip hop vocals.

Yo, it's ill.

I've used the RNC 1773 for female vocalists with very good results, but it's too whimpy for male rappers IMNSHO.

We've been knee-deep in hip hop production lately, and the 160X is currently cemented in the vocal path. Perhaps not the ONLY compressor that will work well for that, mind you, but it works damn well.

[e-cue]

I agree with Curve... The RNC ain't a really good rap vocal compressor. If that's all you got, your best bet is to go with fast attacks and 12'O Clock releases and only shave about 3db off. I'd go either a Distressor, 737, or DBX160Xt route depending on the vibe of the artist. Your mic and pre should sound pretty commercial from the start. I'd run the speck pre compressor and roll off a lot of low end (up to 100htz). If you need more beef, look around 300 to 400 htz, but if you can, boost this post compressor. The 2 main things I use compressor for when doing rap vocals are: squeezing the right level to tape/daw, and getting the compressor to compensate for the artist's lack of breath control. The second one of those can be hard. Like, Talib Kweli raps till he's completely out of breath, you get a hard compression going (like 8:1) that sounds good, but them you hear all the "hhhhhaaaaaaa" breaths going into the next cadence. I usually correct those with vocal rides in a mix, and no one ever complains about the breaths sounding as loud as the barks n ish.
It should sound pretty good during the tracking stage. Rap vocals can be testey to fix during the mix because compression is such an important part to them. Think minumum 85% there. If it isn't, try change something.
Never use verb, only delay, if that. Right now, I'm a big fan of the Ren Vox plug in from waves on rap vocals (using it on Missy Elliot on a mix today). It helps give your lead vocal a great pocket in the track. Don't go apeshit, just use it on the lead otherwise ish will get cluttered and messey. If the performance is there, you shouldn't need plug in's like VocAlign.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by e-cue:
roll off a lot of low end (up to 100htz). If you need more beef, look around 300 to 400 htz, but if you can, boost this post compressor.

Word.

My input mixer for vocal chain is set for -3dB shelve cut at 300Hz...adjusted to taste, of course, but that's a default reference, and for good reasons:

1) Keeps the vocal high and dry,
2) Keeps the rhythm section low and clear of mud.

Yo, math is fun! Innit??

[jjaacc1]

Hey, do you generally compress on the way In (3db shelf cut) and post production?

[e-cue]

Originally posted by jjaacc1
Hey, do you generally compress on the way In (3db shelf cut) and post production?

Hell yes. Rap vocals, in general, are compressed more than other vocals.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Yo.. ..

Tho i aint ever tracked a rap thing... i take that the hard and fast VCA comps tend to work best for raP? stuff like VCA based DBX or SSL channel strips seem to be the go to?

ECue do you often use tube comps or do they fattern uyp to much and you lose that attack that most of the Rappers seem to have in thier vocal production?

What about double compression?

Interested as i would like to get into a bit of this cos locally the Aussie hip hop is kinda lame and very under produced.

CYA
Wiggy

[jjaacc1]

Hey E-cue, this is what I think I understand what you have said.
"When tracking rap, very fast attack, 12 oclock release, High Compression Ratio (6 or 8:1) and only take off around 3db"
Than compress more when in my DAW.

Here are my questions, first, when you track rap, is it always hitting the compressor, or just the louder words and parts?

Secondly, What kind of compression do you do on your DAW or anything Post Preduction? Do you always find yourself using the Waves Vox? If not, what kind of settings do you use on the compression once the rap vocals are already Tracked (Ratio, attack, release, how much reduction)?


Thanks alot for the help.



John

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Wiggy Neve Slut
Tho i aint ever tracked a rap thing... i take that the hard and fast VCA comps tend to work best for raP? stuff like VCA based DBX or SSL channel strips seem to be the go to?

ECue do you often use tube comps or do they fattern uyp to much and you lose that attack that most of the Rappers seem to have in thier vocal production?

What about double compression?

Interested as i would like to get into a bit of this cos locally the Aussie hip hop is kinda lame and very under produced.

CYA
Wiggy

Personally, yeah... I like the hard knee stuff, but not so much the SSL board comp. The tube comps tend to smear the vocal's definition too much. Let me default to the "it depends" clause. For example, the Wu Tang Clan lends itself to a distorted LA-2A type of sound, where as someone like Missy Elliot usually sounds better with something like a distressor.

As far as double compression, one of the "tricks" I always see, especially from Miami based cats, is not really double compression, but they run their Mic->Comp->Eq chain into an aux input with L1 on that channel and then they feed that into an audio channel. That's a bit overkill for me, especially because a lot of them use Psx-100's with soft limit ON. Yuck. I compress once during tracking, and usually I use Ren Comp, and Ren Vox when inside a DAW. If I tracked the vocal, I usually don't have to do too much processing during the mix.

Originally posted by jjaacc1
Hey E-cue, this is what I think I understand what you have said.
"When tracking rap, very fast attack, 12 oclock release, High Compression Ratio (6 or 8:1) and only take off around 3db"
Than compress more when in my DAW.

Here are my questions, first, when you track rap, is it always hitting the compressor, or just the louder words and parts?

If the rapper is timid, yeah. It's important to think of it like compressing the low parts up, not squashing the loud parts down. So, I usually don't always have the compressor working. On the Distressor an attack of "2" works nicely, but slower attacks on the RNC I've used in the past didn't compliment the vocal at all. The biggest 'mistake' I see is bad release times.

Originally posted by jjaacc1
Secondly, What kind of compression do you do on your DAW or anything Post Preduction? Do you always find yourself using the Waves Vox? If not, what kind of settings do you use on the compression once the rap vocals are already Tracked (Ratio, attack, release, how much reduction)?


Thanks alot for the help.

John

A good starting point I could suggest in post production (mixing) daw would be:
F2 (roll off everything below 100htz)->Ren Comp (the vocal preset is decent)->F6->Ren Vox

[chessparov]

How about also trying a different microphone?
A SM57 could sound great on some vocalists with the Great River pre.

Chris

[zarathoustra]

posted by e-cue
As far as double compression, one of the "tricks" I always see, especially from Miami based cats, is not really double compression, but they run their Mic->Comp->Eq chain into an aux input with L1 on that channel and then they feed that into an audio channel.

mmm, i have a question sir e-cue..
in that set up, what is the release range of the L1?
thanks

[NathanEldred]

I use Distressors for rap voxs....Trakkers if they have some sense of dynamic consistency and a more pleasant voice that doesn't need much "help".

[Teacher]

thank you e-cue....i appreciate your knowledge and experience..don't wanna sound like dick rider...just giving a shout out cuz i know there are mixing engineers who refuse to tell how they do anything cuz they don't wanna 'reveal there secrets', i've encountered a few....

Originally posted by e-cue
Personally, yeah... I like the hard knee stuff, but not so much the SSL board comp. The tube comps tend to smear the vocal's definition too much. Let me default to the "it depends" clause. For example, the Wu Tang Clan lends itself to a distorted LA-2A type of sound, where as someone like Missy Elliot usually sounds better with something like a distressor.

As far as double compression, one of the "tricks" I always see, especially from Miami based cats, is not really double compression, but they run their Mic->Comp->Eq chain into an aux input with L1 on that channel and then they feed that into an audio channel. That's a bit overkill for me, especially because a lot of them use Psx-100's with soft limit ON. Yuck. I compress once during tracking, and usually I use Ren Comp, and Ren Vox when inside a DAW. If I tracked the vocal, I usually don't have to do too much processing during the mix.



If the rapper is timid, yeah. It's important to think of it like compressing the low parts up, not squashing the loud parts down. So, I usually don't always have the compressor working. On the Distressor an attack of "2" works nicely, but slower attacks on the RNC I've used in the past didn't compliment the vocal at all. The biggest 'mistake' I see is bad release times.



A good starting point I could suggest in post production (mixing) daw would be:
F2 (roll off everything below 100htz)->Ren Comp (the vocal preset is decent)->F6->Ren Vox

[Jon Best]

A lot of it is the right mic, too- I know some guys that have 'a rap vocal mic' set up, and that's just as non-helpful as having 'a rock vocal mic', or anything else. People sound different rapping, at least as much as singing. Gotta find the right mic. I work with 6-8 rappers regularly, and only a couple sound good on the same mic.

Good advice so far- I will occasionally use an RNC in super nice or an Aphex Compellor, but only for leveling, after I've gotten the sound right (and getting the sound right usually entails some different compression). The little opto on the Langevin DVC does a really good job. Some guys sound great through an 1176, especially if you've got a smoother guy doing edgier stuff. Fast, edgy comps are usually going to work better than big, slow, puffy ones. If that makes any sense.

As far as mixing, everyone's different Low cuts are great. Sometimes either a short, grainy reverb can be cool (think SPX90), and delays find their way in there pretty often as well.

[e-cue]

Originally posted by zarathoustra
mmm, i have a question sir e-cue..
in that set up, what is the release range of the L1?
thanks

Try around 100... Be careful. Sometimes it can spotlight the percussiveness of the vocal, and sometimes the opposite. The Miami cats usually have a tighter release, but it sounds too jerky for me most of the time.

Originally posted by Teacher
thank you e-cue....i appreciate your knowledge and experience..don't wanna sound like dick rider...just giving a shout out cuz i know there are mixing engineers who refuse to tell how they do anything cuz they don't wanna 'reveal there secrets', i've encountered a few....

I'm a firm believer in knowing where and when to apply knowledge. Just because you know how to autotune the life out of everything doesn't mean you have to. Just because you know how to squash the dogdookie out of your stereo bus through a finalizer doesn't mean you have to. Know what I'm saying? So essentially, if I "reveal my secrets", I'm basically just giving possible tips, but it's up to the engineer to put them to proper executed usage, and hopefully even take it a step further. Gearslutz is a kick ass place to chat with a lot of very talented engineers, but most of the 'newbie questions' are helpful to me because them can spark inspiration to anyone no matter what level of success or experience. You can never stop learning.

[Mils]

A good starting point I could suggest in post production (mixing) daw would be:
F2 (roll off everything below 100htz)->Ren Comp (the vocal preset is decent)->F6->Ren Vox [/B][/QUOTE]

This is my first post here, and I must say this has to be one of the best boards in the history of message boards.... That being said I am also a big fan of Ren comp and vox.....but this may be a dumb ? but what does "F6" mean, sitting in between the two?

[Charlie-O]

Originally posted by e-cue

Never use verb, only delay, if that. Right now, I'm a big fan of the Ren Vox plug in from waves on rap vocals (using it on Missy Elliot on a mix today). It helps give your lead vocal a great pocket in the track. Don't go apeshit, just use it on the lead otherwise ish will get cluttered and messey. If the performance is there, you shouldn't need plug in's like VocAlign.

"Never use verb, only delay"



Is this standard for most of your rap mixes?

[vaesion]

Originally posted by Mils
A good starting point I could suggest in post production (mixing) daw would be:
F2 (roll off everything below 100htz)->Ren Comp (the vocal preset is decent)->F6->Ren Vox

This is my first post here, and I must say this has to be one of the best boards in the history of message boards.... That being said I am also a big fan of Ren comp and vox.....but this may be a dumb ? but what does "F6" mean, sitting in between the two? [/B][/QUOTE]

i was thinkin the same thing
lol

[moeses]

it's the reverb and delay you're not adding
as well as not having a superstar compressor
i'm sure the RNC is fantastic...but rap vocals either love dirty compression, or squeeky clean, i've found anywhere in the middle to suck the life out, IMEO(ears opinion) though...

play the the delays and reverb, probably something you're missing out on...
cus you want rap vocals to really sit in front of the mix
and a good rapper will have a very layered voice in my opinion, seeing as i'm on the the best there is!!!
so it's good you got the great river, i've heard it on rap vocals with a Nueman, it's beautiful...
but, the distressor is a powerful powerful beast, so it might not be the best next step

and this is all my opinion nobody can mix the same right?

also, there's a certain setting on the waves L1 that makes your hooks sound awesome...

[moeses]

E-Cue, wow nice list of clientelle, and thanks for the compression tips...

if you don't mind me asking, what's your background in the music industry?

[vaesion]

Originally posted by e-cue
I agree with Curve... The RNC ain't a really good rap vocal compressor. If that's all you got, your best bet is to go with fast attacks and 12'O Clock releases and only shave about 3db off. I'd go either a Distressor, 737, or DBX160Xt route depending on the vibe of the artist. Your mic and pre should sound pretty commercial from the start. I'd run the speck pre compressor and roll off a lot of low end (up to 100htz). If you need more beef, look around 300 to 400 htz, but if you can, boost this post compressor. The 2 main things I use compressor for when doing rap vocals are: squeezing the right level to tape/daw, and getting the compressor to compensate for the artist's lack of breath control. The second one of those can be hard. Like, Talib Kweli raps till he's completely out of breath, you get a hard compression going (like 8:1) that sounds good, but them you hear all the "hhhhhaaaaaaa" breaths going into the next cadence. I usually correct those with vocal rides in a mix, and no one ever complains about the breaths sounding as loud as the barks n ish.
It should sound pretty good during the tracking stage. Rap vocals can be testey to fix during the mix because compression is such an important part to them. Think minumum 85% there. If it isn't, try change something.
Never use verb, only delay, if that. Right now, I'm a big fan of the Ren Vox plug in from waves on rap vocals (using it on Missy Elliot on a mix today). It helps give your lead vocal a great pocket in the track. Don't go apeshit, just use it on the lead otherwise ish will get cluttered and messey. If the performance is there, you shouldn't need plug in's like VocAlign.

most of the time I dont care to have such process vocals........but for when im making lil jon type recordings for an extremely huge vocal sound would routing my mic through a distressor for normal compression then through another with the nuke setting for brickwall limiting give me a similar if not better result?.....I will try myself....but my ears have fooled me before...the advice of a professional helps

[Mils]

So nobody knows what the F6 stands for?

[illynoise]

Sorry for the post after post, but I thought I would add this.

BTW, I know how some of ya'll feel about the dbx channel strips.
So don't flame me.

It's really about how you get a good rap vocal from an artist that knows what he/she is doing and they will usually know how to get a great vocal. For instance, I recorded Bizzy Bone and he was an artist that really knew what he wanted to do on the mic and did it well, I didn't have to tell him "do this do that", he already knew. For someone that's just starting out, or recording themselves, learn where and how to position your mic on your voice, your room's dynamics, where to place the mic in the room. There are so many things, sorry....

Peace out,

ILLYnoise

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Mils
what does "F6" mean, sitting in between the two?

Originally posted by Mils
So nobody knows what the F6 stands for?

Sorry. McDsp's F6 in Filterbank. Still one of my favorite eq's- hardware or software. I just got Channel G and it's looking very promising so far.

Originally posted by Charlie-O
"Never use verb, only delay"

Is this standard for most of your rap mixes?

On leads, definately. I try it every now and again but it never works. Maybe an Ambience setting on the hooks or something, but I never like it on leads.

What's the last rap song you can think of with verb on the raps?

If you are hellbent on using effects, start with a harmonizer or something else. Some type of "Dynamic Delay" is usually where I start set to the tempo. File under "depends on the track".

Originally posted by moeses
E-Cue, wow nice list of clientelle, and thanks for the compression tips...

if you don't mind me asking, what's your background in the music industry?

No prob. I'm an engineer. I usually split the tracking and mixing 50/50, but lately I've been doing a lot more tracking and working a lot more outside the 'rap' genre. I've never sold gear for a living.

Back on topic, I've been using the Cranesong STC-8 on rap vocals most of the time when tracking lately. It's the best I think I've heard on rap vocals. I'd probably use a Trakker if I had access to one. The other day I did an ITB mix with McDsp's CB4 (compressorbank) set to SolidState (SSL) on the lead and Brittish (33609) on the BG rap vocals that turned out 'wicked awesome', as the Party Fun Action Commitee might say. Might wanna give that a stab in the neck and see how it works for you. Hope that helps.

[DirkB]

Originally posted by e-cue
The biggest 'mistake' I see is bad release times.

Very, very true. On a lot of things, but certainly on vox and snare drums, the release time is essential. Too short and it will sound distorted or just uncomfortable, too long and you'll hear the compression messing with the levels.

Good advice in this thread .

Greetings,
Dirk

[nukmusic]

I've tried the L2 plug on lead VOX. It work good most of the time. But you have to play with the settings a bit. I like the way it de-esses some vocals.

[sixtoo]

Bahah.
Shit man, Ecue just dropped a PFAcommittee reference!.. I think that qualifies for some extra proppers in the help department...

My experience with rap vocals is this... Generally underground cats record at home, in shitty rooms on mediocre digital workstations. In that scenario, you really want to capture as little of the room sound as possible, add some character that a proper mix room can use in the mix process, and get the vocal as "up front" as possible. I still believe (even with the current sound of commercial rap, which I have come to despise...) that short signal paths and not running too much dynamics are important to maintaining a good vocal perfomance that will cut across some raw drum tracks.

My vocal chain for Rap...
The mic really depends on the rapper. In really shitty rooms I find that condensers work much better that large diaphragm "body" mics. I have used everything from 58s to iFet7's to Neumann big boys sucessfully, I almost always prefer an API7600 (with the eq engaged to get the compressor to react how ever I need it to) or Neve 1073 (although i think if I was working a little slicker stuff I would be inclined to use a Great River) running into an 1176 or Avalon 737 (I have never liked the Avalon stuff, but think that it works very well for rap vocals...) directly into the workstation (bypassing the board) with an L1 on the direct, for just a tad of extra headroom. I like the sound of old rap recordings, overcompressed and radio raw.

Ecue, impressive list of clients, which rooms do you work out of?