How Much Should I Charge For A Company Song?

[Jalabodu]

Anyone? Bueller? Walters?

[Jose Mrochek]

I would ask what their budget is.

You will only be worth as much as they are willing to pay.

wrong answer, but thats how it works : )

you can´t set a price to artistic material. unless ofcourse you are a celebrity or your credits are endless. Thats when YOU set the price and more than likely they will accept or find the money to accept your offer.

[djui5]

What's it going to cost you to pay for studio time/musicians/food/mixer (if you use one), etc et?

Then add in whatever you feel your time is worth....

[natpub]

A huge part of these cost assessments is what their planned use and size of area to be used will be. If they intend to be a local operation, that is one kind of price, but if they are national or international, that would be a far larger price, often 10 times as much. Also, the intended amount and nature of use must be considered, such as will it be for radio, TV, etc. spots, or just like internet, all instrumental, or is this a vocal theme song?

You will want a progressive agreement that states that while something is local and limited to a certain use, then one price applies, and they have, perhaps, unlimited use (this of course would be up to you). However, if they grow and expand to regional or national size, and continue to use it, then a different pricing usually will kick in, often some kind of retroactive payment.

Another thing, you must consider if you are only writing or also recording, and even playing and/or singing everything. Each of these costs is additional, so you make it very hard for anyone to give you an answer.

Finally, different parts of the country can vary by a great degree. What a local company is willing to pay for a jingle in a small town in Mississippi is going to be vastly different than the cost in San Francisco.


Good luck, and have fun. Even if you take too little or mess up on contract specifics, it is all good for learning if this is your first shot at this kind of thing.

[Fletcher]

The most important word in the agreement will be "residuals"... consult an entertainment attorney that is familiar with the advertising trade.

[lasso]

I have a friend who does jingle work for a very famous shoe brand. Here, in Denmark, I think he has made around 5K $ for 1 jingle for a TV add. Furthermore there will be royalties depending on how many times the TV add will be broadcasted and so forth.

[Jalabodu]

Thanks for the comments so far. I really appreciate it.

I'm planning on doing the writing with one or more of my writing partners. As far as musicians go, I'll probably use a girl I've been working with (very pleasing vocal quality), my in-house (as in roommate) drummer, then I'll probably play everything else. That's what I'm most familiar with.

I'll also be doing all the recording/producing with my somewhat modest LE setup.

This company has immediate plans of going international. I have yet to find out the scope of use for this song/jingle. It has to do with them combining two of their multi-million dollar companies to form one marketing giant (They control 40% of the world's Aloe Vera production). So I think it's going to be used in a lot of different ad campaigns.

So far this is what I've gotten from this:

First, split the whole project into two catagories; Production and Intellectual Property. Then...

Production:
1. Pay each individual a scale wage for their performance.
2. Pay myself a scale wage for each performance hat I wear (e.g., guitarist, vocalist, keyboardist/sequencer, etc.).
3. Pay myself a scale wage for engineering and as a producer.

Intellectual Property
1. After writing, determine % ownership by each writer.
2. Copyright.
3. Determine some sort of residual usage price based on scope (e.g. one for Corporate materials, one for national ad campaigns, etc.)

I think I'm gonna HAVE to have a damn lawyer for that last one. . Anybody know of a good one on the West Coast? Better yet, Colorado?

So,
How much hourly, is a scale wage?

and...

What else needs to be added to these lists?

Thanks again.

[GYang]

I don't know for your place, but we charge for song (2-3 min) or jingle only depending on costs + 100% added on the top.
We have many composers/arrangers that will sell their creative work for anything from 500-5000 $ (this one should be clearly winning one), average 1-2 k for good material. Arrangement and recording would cost 1-3 k.
So, in most cases we can have finished product on 2-5 k cost basis, what means 4-10 k price for the client. But we never take orders for one song, so usualy we have some 20-40 k budget to work with, assuming set of songs for particular task.
No further question, no residuals, no lawyers. Cash and carry.

[MrChang]

Originally Posted by Jalabodu

Intellectual Property
1. After writing, determine % ownership by each writer.
2. Copyright.
3. Determine some sort of residual usage price based on scope (e.g. one for Corporate materials, one for national ad campaigns, etc.)

I hate to bring you down, and I don't mean this to sound harsh against you, but the above list is a laugh. Do you really think that you'll get any % of publishing/ownership? I would strongly doubt that. I can almost gaurantee you that you'll be signing away any copyright/ownership for the upfront fee, that that fee will be offered to you as an "all in" buyout (up to you to pay your musicians what rate/chunk of your kitty), and that you'll be offered this job as a work-made-for-hire.

Based on that, determine what number you can live with (and that they offer) for doing this job. Your fee needs to be of a value that is high enough so you don't feel raped by walking away from copyright ownership. Publishing... good luck. You can ask for anything. Who knows... maybe they don't have a ton of experience in these matters and you can walk away with a chunk. You can try, but it's pretty unlikely.

Just make sure that there is wording, normally one to several pages in a standard work-for-hire contract, defining the scope of your performance royalties (aka writer's share).

A little reading material that scatches the surface:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/068...lance&n=283155

Or better yet, consult an entertainment attorney. Congrats on landing the gig and good luck!

John

[Jalabodu]

John,
Harsh is not a problem. That's why I'm asking. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Fletcher and Natpub were saying by "residuals". So, in this business is there no such thing as copyright ownership?

For instance; what about something like the NBC sound (major triad played 1 - 5 -3 or tonic, fifth, major third). Does someone own that and make royalties everytime it's played? That seems unlikely to me.

Thanks for the reference. I'll tear into it. Any more info is much appreciated.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

The most important word in the agreement will be "residuals"... consult an entertainment attorney that is familiar with the advertising trade.

I don't know about your side of the pond, but a friend of mine signed to a major (take one of the top three here) tell's me that they all want buy-outs now. He has done work for a few satelite companies and tells me that its been this way for the last couple of years. They get around the "unfair" contract terms by paying a premium up front, but in real terms it doesn't add up to anything like what would be expected from residuals.

In the TV market recently there has been a worrying trend with many independents setting up publishing companies. A couple of people I know have been approched this way and the contracts they are offering are rubbish, though I suspect there are a lot of desperate people out there willing to sign.

Regards to all


Roland

[MrChang]

Originally Posted by Jalabodu

John,
Harsh is not a problem. That's why I'm asking. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Fletcher and Natpub were saying by "residuals". So, in this business is there no such thing as copyright ownership?

For instance; what about something like the NBC sound (major triad played 1 - 5 -3 or tonic, fifth, major third). Does someone own that and make royalties everytime it's played? That seems unlikely to me.

Thanks for the reference. I'll tear into it. Any more info is much appreciated.

5,3,1 (I 6/4 chord is what I hear)

Seriously, I suppose that the broadcaster or the parent company, General Electric, actually holds the publishing rights (100%) and full copyright ownership to the brand identifier/NBC Theme. That's not to say that whomever actually created that little diddy doesn't get a performance royalty... as the "songwriter." Depends on what is outlined in their contract. If that seems unlikely to you, welcome to residual income. Come on in!

Most production companies/broadcasters/cable networks/film companies/etc. do want complete control of every aspect of the music you are providing, hence the "work-for-hire" basis. They treat you as a quasi-employee, where the work you provide, the song/score/soundtrack/arrangement/etc., is property of the company... much like any idea a full-time staff person may come up while under their employ.

If they're really swarmy, they may try to get your writer's share of performance royalties, too. Pretty unlikely and unorthodox, but I've seen it done. However, that's not something that automatically gets signed away with copyright or publishing, but you have to make sure that the scope of your performance royalties (like credit or any other negotiable) is clearly defined within the contract. Other "songwriter/writer's share" royalties could include folio or piano copies of the music, mechanical rights, reproduction rights, etc. Really depends on your contract.

I am not a lawyer, so do not take any of my advise as such. We all make our own decisions. I have signed quite a few contracts for music that airs in both domestic and foreign markets, though. I know ASCAP has some info on their website discussing in general these matters. They are actually a really good start. The Passman book helped me when I started 10 years ago. (It's funny... that book is staring me in the face as I write this!) And I'm sure a lawyer would be more than happy to "help"... for a fee.

In short , be prepared to walk away from copyright/publishing for music being created for film/tv/advertising, but also be prepared and thorough in getting your songwriter's royalties. A nice chuck of change upfront eases the pain of our "moral rights of composers."

[Jalabodu]

Thanks so much for the data. BTW you're right 5,3,1. It ends on the tonic, what was I thinking?

Well I've got a little more time before I have "the talk" with the main guy. I'll be doing some digging in the mean time. I got a lead on a entertainment lawyer who's a friend of my agent. We'll see where that leads. If anything else comes to mind please let me know.

Thanks

[dave-G]

Re-read GYang's post -- it's dense, but has important stuff in it..

As for residuals, forget about them for something like this .. All musicians/singers would have to be in the union(s) or Taft-Hartley'ed in for this gig, and that's a project in and of itself. PLUS... given the nature of the client you're describing, they're not likely to be able to handle residuals -- that's something to study up on in case this gig leads you to a national spot for a big-name client via a big-name ad agency who does mega-media buys.

For a job like this, where you're dealing directly with a marketing department of a small or midsize company, buyouts are the name of the game.. Unfortunately, your closest competition is needle-drop. Make them love you, and this could become a good revolving/recurring paycheck.

-dave

[Stisse]

Originally Posted by Jalabodu

I've just been asked to write and produce a song/jingle for an up and coming health products company. The business development manager is going to be talking to me about it in the first week of February and I'd like to have a clue of what to tell him.

I've never been in this part of the business.

I'm a musician/engineer/writer and I have access to two other writers as well as all the musicians I'll need to accomplish this. I'll also be doing all of the recording and production.

So what do I charge the company?

Any helpful comments are welcome.

A couple of years back (don't do that kind of thing anymore...though I'd love to for the good $$$...) our standard deal was that the hiring company had full rights to exploit the composition within agreed media and geographical markets for a limited time...say 2 years. After that the rights returned to me/us, and if they wanted to have another campaign using that same song, they had to come back again. Not that I think any of those songs are classics, but it sure feels better to have a timelimit and after that someone has ask for permission and you'd get some cash every once in a while for putting your a$$ up like that.

Also, for me it was important that the composition could only be used for that certain tv ad or radio ad or whatever...I'm not sure you'd get away with that today.

I'd say that you should get plenty of $$$ for each and every right you give up if they want to own your composition and exploit it however they like for all eternity.

Don't know if any of this will work for you, but I always felt it was OK for us.


Best of luck to you,

Stefan

[natpub]

One of the best ways we learned to price things in our region was to cold-call our competition and inquire about their prices as if we were buying--they would then tell us a better range of fees than we would otherwise have guessed.

We would also ask around about who was tops in the area, and who was just getting started and call them all. That gave us a decent range of ideas.

Bear in mind that, via the Internet, businesses can now get custom jingles within a matter of hours--often insanely cheap from cubby-hole companies who have artists and writers standing-by to make jingles non-stop, all day long. This really isnt all that unusual, since jingles have always been a very rapid pace business. Do a Google search as if you were a business seeking music--you will learn a lot.

Bottom line in any market is "there is a need!" , and there are as many ways to price things as there are people to make deals.

It all depends on how you sell and to whom.

A lot of businesses (such as your friends) have never bought music before, so they have no clue, and they really count on you to give them a break. I advise doing so, since it may help you more to be cool about it and recognize that you are their friend, and you are new to this kind of product.

The reality is, many local/regional ad-agencies now just go with generic or cookie cutter stuff that costs very little and makes it's profit off of volume. But if you show that you care and work hard to make something really fantastic, it WILL show through, and (as with all music) pays off in the end.

Anyway, just some random thoughts, as this isnt really what we mainly do, but it does pay some bills.


Cheers

[Marineville]

Things are different here in the UK. Based on a composition fee of £2,500.00, the usage for Northern America would be 600% of that fee, ie a total of £15,000.00. This would apply for 1 year only, after which they would need to re-licence and pay you again.

You need to find out what medium they intend to use (TV, Cinema, Radio, Internet etc) and for what time period. Getting an idea of the budget upfront will tell you a] how serious they are and b] how clued up they are as to how the business works.

Good luck!

[chrisgraff]

Be prepared with two prices: one with a modest profit, where you retain publishing; the other with a larger profit, where they own it.

I've found many of these companies don't have any clue about music, specifically, how much it costs. It wouldn't surprise me if they expect to find "some guy" to whip something up for $250. Advertising agencies get the call when they want "the real thing".

If you want more back end money, write it yourself 100%....or at most with one other musician. Otherwise you're just giving it away.

The key to profit in this area is keeping production simple & costs low. You don't want to spend a bunch of money on production, only to have the CEO's wife say it's too purple. She'll probably want to sing on it anyway.

[darkwater]

the only residuals you are going to make on a commercial are the ones through the musicians union and SAG for TV and AFTRA for radio (if you sing). When you do a production like this, it is a work for hire and you have no pubishing rights beyond that point. UNLESS, you charge a NOMINAL fee with the understanding that this is a non exclusive license arrangement. In that case, they are licensing the track from you and you are free to use it or rework it for something else in the future. This is a good way to go if the spots are only local and not national ads. Most of the time regional spots don't have big time advertising budgets anyway, so you may as well still own your property at the end of the day.

The national stuff is where it's at for big mailbox money. But it's only for usage of your voice or the part you played on an instrument. And ONLY if you are a union member in all the necessary unions.

Good luck with your deal. Sorry I took so long to respond. I'm crazed with commercials right now.

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by Jalabodu

For instance; what about something like the NBC sound (major triad played 1 - 5 -3 or tonic, fifth, major third). Does someone own that and make royalties everytime it's played? That seems unlikely to me.

In the UK, the original Channel4 theme (similar thing to the NBC theme.....couple of chords...) was written by Thomas Dolby.
It was played several times each day for 12 years.
He made in excess of £3Million.

Nowadays though (as has already been mentioned) the commissioning company will usually 'buy out' all rights for something like this.
Dependant on the usage this buyout can vary hugely in value.

For instance, from my own recent experience.... Commercial for Ridley Scott, 30 seconds, worldwide release, £25000.
Commercial for new BBC channel, 30 seconds, worldwide release.... £500.

Go figure.

In all these things, sometimes you win (and win big), and sometimes you lose.... but if you make sure that you're paid fairly for your time, then you never lose too much.

If you do a good job, and are totally professional, you'll get asked to do more work. Then the chances of getting a big paying commission are increased.
Good luck!